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• Khelanor

  May 06, 2008, 04:11:28 pm

  
  

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  remove your plate and power relay for missions specific hardeners and change the cap battery for Cap rechargers
• Tal

  May 06, 2008, 04:40:14 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Khelanor on May 06, 2008, 04:11:28 pm

  remove your plate and power relay for missions specific hardeners and change the cap battery for Cap rechargers
  

  
  Actually, the batteries are the better option for this situation. They offer a larger capacitor, while the recharge rate remains the same. This is a good setup for level 1s and most level 2s. Although, maybe an EANM or specific hardeners would be better than the plate in the more difficult lvl 2s.
• Khelanor

  May 06, 2008, 06:18:00 pm

  
  

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  yes and what you do when your large capacitor buffer runs out in mission? you die, thats why I prefer to have a high recharge then a big buffer for my cap but I see what you mean with the high cap and same recharge but maybe 1 battery and 1 recharger then? Also EANM and mission specific hardeners are way better then a plate for mission, never put plates for mission.
• Xkai7263

  May 06, 2008, 06:39:45 pm

  
  

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  On some ships the capacitor actually gives more recharge rate that a recharger. If the total is boosted enough its will increase the recharge due to the recharge time staying the same
  
• rudder2008

  May 06, 2008, 06:48:07 pm

  
  

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  If a battery boosts the capacitor total a greater percentage than a recharger would give in recharge, then use the battery.  Batteries get worse as you stack them up however because they boost the overall total more.  Rechargers continue to stack with no diminishing returns, so usually youc an use a max of one or 2 batteries.
  
  Batteries also come with a little more challenging fitting requirements which can be a pain at times, so that is another consideration.
• Oraxius

  May 07, 2008, 12:28:19 am

  
  

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  Thanks for the input guys, however, by my calculations, the batteries are usually the better choice once you have one or two relays in there. I opted for a mix of recharge via relays and capacity via batteries and I'll probably keep it setup like that. If I find that I have sufficient capacitor recharge, I may later switch one relay to a passive explosive hardener so I can tank missiles better, but other than that using active hardeners is not the best. It's my opinion that they eat up way too much energy per second, usually around 1.5 each. And the bonus you get from them then becomes tied to how much energy you have left or can regenerate through the fight. As for the plating versus resistances debate, the 1600mm plate adds more survivability than any single adaptive nano, damage control, or active hardener, so it stays. The other advantage to using a huge armor buffer is that you don't have to relay on your repairer as much. Using the large buffer allows you to soak a larger amount of initial damage until you destroy enough ships to reduce the incoming damage to a repairable level.
  
  All in all, I still think this is the best under generalized mission circumstances.
• Oraxius

  May 07, 2008, 01:09:45 am

  
  

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  Just did a little math.
  
  When it comes to the issue of yanking a PRII for an EANMI, the membrane will provide an additional 1806.22 of raw damage soaking before I'm out of armor. The relay, on the other hand, provides 1054.80 energy, regenerated over 6 minutes (or 360 seconds) at a rate 2.93/second (the regen boost granted by the relay). With that extra energy, I could complete 63 repair cycles for a total increase of 36488.69 additional points of raw damage soaking ability. Even in a sixth of that time, at 1 minute of combat, the bonus far exceeds that which would be gained from using the EANMI by almost a factor of 6.
  
  When the 1600mm plate and EANMI are mathematically compared, the total raw damage capacity with the plate is 12034.75, while the EANMI only raises the maximum soak to 4099.08 points of raw damage. The difference is 7935.67 of raw incoming damage before my armor is gone, making the plating the obviously superior choice, slot for slot. Both of these calculation sets assume level 4 in related skills.
  
  I haven't factored in the amounts added by the repairer by default in each case, because that's a common variable in both calculation sets, and therefore isn't relavent to determing the differences. The damage reduction modifier used when comparing an EANMI was 0.4804, while the modifier used when comparing the plate was 0.5525, ignoring the explosive vulnerability for the time being. As an asside, if anyone cares, the battery is 0.15 energy/second better than the recharger, which equates to another repair cycle after 111.11 seconds. Plus you have more base energy for repairs, so its like a two in one bonus.
• manvical

  May 07, 2008, 03:53:09 am

  
  

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  hmm lol if i was to reply properly it would be a wall of text and random gibberish
  
  but a short version will do for now. your comments make sense but your missing some bits out imo.
  
  firstly if you are cap stable, there is no point in increasing your cap! that being aside.....Remember that the eanm will decrease incoming dps there for less to repair, the relay on the other hand does nothing to your tank except increase the length of time you can rep. If there is less to repair you may end up being able to skip a cycle.
  
  “The relay, on the other hand, provides 1054.80 energy, regenerated over 6 minutes (or 360 seconds) at a rate 2.93/second (the regen boost granted by the relay)......
  yes true but this is only added after the normal repping has run out of cap. In which time you probably would have been popped or warped out or reduced the incoming dps to a manageable level. Where as the eanm will take affect from the very start, and you will reach that golden “dps in <= hp recovered” faster.
  
  “Even in a sixth of that time, at 1 minute of combat, the bonus far exceeds that which would be gained from using the EANMI by almost a factor of 6.”
  Imo not true, the eanm could be the difference between being able to tank the damage “dps incoming <= hp recovered” or being unstable “dps incoming >= hp recovered”.
  And again this only refers to the difference between full cap drain with the relay and without. For example total cap time without the relay is 5min and with the relay is 6min, you can only count the repping time of that 1min extra as being the useful time of the relay, where as the eanm is effective for the whole 5min. this should give you different results.
  
  the issue of the plate compared to eanm has to include the repper and a time frame, total cap time if unstable or duration of combat. reason for this is that the eanm in effect increases the repaired amount of the repper (reduced dps with constant repping is the same as constant dps with increased repping.....kinda). so over time the eanm will out tank the plate. this is where the difference in time is the deciding factor (this is also the basis for some gank type ships when comparing resist&plates to repping). also you should concider the effect of ship speed, faster ships take less damage. the plate will slow you down and increase inertia.
  
  finally the use of cap batteries compared to rechargers is simple. total cap divided by recharge rate equals rough recharge rate. if the battery increases this rough recharge rate more that a recharger then use the battery
  
  sorry for the wall of text
  but this is the short version lol
  
  edited for minor touch ups and..
  and might wanna get rid of that pwned smiley 
  
  edited again, just notice the small rails, remember you get a bonus to med rails. by increasing your dps you will reduce you incoming dps faster by lossing the plate you can not only fit more resist but possibly increase your weapon size.
  
  final edit hopefully,
  your comparing 2 cap batteries and 2 relays to what cap recharger situ? 2 T2cap rechargers and 2 relays or just 2 rechargers. thats 4 modules devoted to cap recharge.
  skill depending, mission spec set of hardeners will 90% of the time be the best option purely down to the massive reduction in incoming dps. the cap wouldnt matter as you would be able to micro manage the repper to replace the cap drain coming from the hardeners.
  
  at the end of the day you can fly how you want but please try out the other possibilities just to see what happens in combat situ 
• adamantine

  May 07, 2008, 04:16:45 am

  
  

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  Ok to make this simple... The goal in PVE is to be able to tank the damamge coming in, not be able to last longer with a plate.  In lvl Is and IIs it does not matter much, but once you get into lvl IVs, you will learn this very quickly that the goal is to be able to sustainably tank the damamge, not just put a plate on and last a bit longer.  So the EANM (not that i would recomend an EANM, you need to fit mission specific hardeners) will allow the reper a much better chance to handle the incoming damamge.  Fitting rechargers in the mids, allows for more PG which would allow you to fit medium turrets unstead of the small ones you have there.  Fitting rechargers in the mids also allows you to fit more resists in the lows, giving your reper even more of a chance to keep up with the incoming damamge. 
  
  To put it simple, Plating in a LVL IV in some situations will only give you an additional 10 secounds of survivabilyty, but if you switch to a sustainable tank, can be permanantly run.  So the idea behind more resist over a plate is more of a idea i would recomend you learn for your future in PVE if you plan on getting into lvl IVs.
  
  Actualy.. you will learn this once you get into lvl IIIs.  There are plenty of lvl IIIs that trying a plate fit will cause you to have to warp out many times, where as if you had a sustainable tank, you could stay and perma tank the missions,  WItch allows you to be more time effecient, which is what running missions is all about.   the faster you can complete them the more isk you make.
• adamantine

  May 07, 2008, 04:38:51 am

  
  

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  Also, to be completely honest, if you are going to use rails, a VEXOR is a better pve ship then the thorax.
• Khelanor

  May 07, 2008, 05:08:59 am

  
  

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  thank you Adamantine, you explained exactly what I thought.
• manvical

  May 07, 2008, 05:25:52 am

  
  

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  lol the term "lasting longer" actually fit both plate and resists, the main thing to remember that plates offer short term insta hp but the resists add more long term hp.
• adamantine

  May 07, 2008, 05:26:59 am

  
  

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  your welcome. 
• Oraxius

  May 07, 2008, 04:11:29 pm

  
  

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  Took the new comments into consideration and ran three scenarios worth of numbers. I compared the suggested 3 hardeners, a damage control, and a repairer against my first choice of 2 relays, a damage control, a repairer, and the 1600 plating. I also compared both to the early suggestion of swapping a power relay for an energized adaptive. In each scenario I factored in capacitor total and regeneration, as well as, the repairer bonuses, as suggested. I should note though, that none of these scenarios is "cap neutral", which I don't think can be achieved when using an armor repairer.
  
  The scenario with the hardeners starts with a raw tank of 6968.15 calculated using a modifier of 0.2826, and has a lifespan of 115 seconds when using one cap battery and one cap recharger. It can complete 11 repair cycles for a tank increase of 12455.77 raw damage in that time. This brings the total tank up to 19423.92 over 115 seconds, before the tank breaks (defined by the repairer having to pause). The energy drain used during this set of calculations was 25.1 energy/second, with a regeneration rate of 6.85 energy/second.
  
  The scenario with the relays and plate starts with a raw tank of 12034.75 calculated using a modifier of 0.5525, and has a lifespan of 286 seconds when using two cap batteries and 2 relays. It can complete 29 repair cycles for a tank increase of 16796.38 raw damage in that time. This brings the total tank up to 28831.13 over 286 seconds, before the tank breaks. For comparative purposes, I then normalized this scenario to 115 seconds to more accurately reflect the differences between it and the first scenario. When normalized, this setup grants a total tank of 18405.79 raw damage over 115 seconds, which is about 1K less than the first scenario. The key to remember here, however, is that it can continue to tank damage beyond 115 seconds in an efficient manner. The energy drain used during this set of calculations was 20.6 energy/second, with a regeneration rate of 11.71 energy/second.
  
  The scenario with the energized membrane starts with a raw tank of 13840.97 calculated using a modifier of 0.4804, and has a lifespan of 221 seconds when using two cap batteries and 1 relay. It can complete 22 repair cycles for a tank increase of 14654.23 raw damage in that time. This brings the total tank up to 28495.42 over 221 seconds, before the tank breaks. When normalized to compare it to the hardener scenario, this setup grants a total tank of 21168.20 Raw damage over 115 seconids, which is almost 2K more than the first scenario. The energy drain used during this set of calculations was 20.6 energy/second, with a regeneration rate of 8.78 energy/second.
  
  The starting, normalized, and total tank of this last scenario makes it the best pick of the three proposed scenarios, and so I stand corrected. I'll swap a relay for an energized adaptive. As for the other suggestions to use hardeners, it doesn't seem like a good idea at all, based on the math behind each scenario. When examining each of the three scenarios, remember that it's about the total amount of raw damage your ship can take within a standardized amount of time before the tank breaks and/or until you take hull damage.
  
  Edit: Big thanks to Manvical and Adamantine. There were some parts of your explanations I disagreed with, based on how I approach and view combat, but your information was still very useful.
  
  Edit-2: Each scenario used Light Railguns when calculating the energy cost per second from weapons. The energy cost for using medium rails would be an additional -2.48 energy/second, if anyone actually wanted to recalculate the first scenario using medium railguns. At a glance though, you would probably lose about 2 repair cycles and at least 10 seconds off your longevity.
• Oraxius

  May 07, 2008, 07:04:23 pm

  
  

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  Compared a few more scenarios, and out of all the possible combinations of repairers, hardeners, plating, and relays, using a repairer, three hardeners, and one 1600mm plating seems to provide the best defensive boost. This scenario starts with a raw tank of 20459.08 calculated using a modifier of 0.3250, and has a lifespan of 115 seconds when using one cap battery and one cap recharger. It can complete 11 repair cycles for a tank increase of 10830.77 raw damage in that time. This brings the total tank up to 31289.85 over 115 seconds, before the tank breaks. The energy drain used during this set of calculations was 25.1 energy/second, with a regeneration rate of 6.85 energy/second.
  
  If one wishes to use medium sized weapons instead of small, the best combination seems to be one repairer, three hardeners, and one 800mm plating. This medium weapon scenario starts with a raw tank of 13259.08 calculated using a modifier of 0.3250, and has a lifespan of 101 seconds when using one cap battery and one cap recharger. It can complete 10 repair cycles for a tank increase of 9846.15 raw damage in that time. This brings the total tank up to 23105.23 over 101 seconds, before the tank breaks. The energy drain used during this set of calculations was 27.58 energy/second, with a regeneration rate of 6.85 energy/second.
  
  With regards to the weapon size debate though, most pilots' turret skills are going to be something close to Gunnery 5, Small Hybrid Turret 5, Rapid Firing 4, Small Railgun Specialization 2, and Medium Hybrid Turret 1 if just jumping to the medium size weaponry. This array of skills, combined with the ship bonus and higher ammo base damage, provide roughly 86 Dps with Dual 150mm Railgun Is (medium hybrids), while providing about 88 Dps with 150mm Railgun IIs (small hybrids). This means that using small railguns is actually better than using medium railguns until you can max out your medium hybrid related skills, and since this is the case, you might as well go with the 1600mm option.
  
  Current loadout has been updated to match the new findings.
• rudder2008

  May 07, 2008, 07:13:46 pm

  
  

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  If you want, there is this nifty little program called Eve fitting tool that will save you a ton of math.  Simply plug in items, load your skills, and viola it gives you the best tank for a given dmg profile.
  
  I do appreciate your efforts to provide numerical proof though, arbitrary comments based on no data are a bad thing.
• Oraxius

  May 07, 2008, 07:52:09 pm

  
  

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  Thanks. I'll have to look into that. There's a certain amount of fun involved in working it all out oneself though, but that could just be me.
• rudder2008

  May 07, 2008, 08:04:53 pm

  
  

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  I think you calculations were pretty much correct, but eft helps account for fairly technical differential recharge rates and resist stacking bonuses while concerning skills etc, so its pretty complicated stuff if you don't have the formulas.
• Oraxius

  May 07, 2008, 08:32:00 pm

  
  

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  For the most part, the calculations I am concerned with were fairly consistent between the tool and my own work on paper. I just finished inputting everything and gleaned a little more useful information. This will definately help me crunch through more scenarios at a faster pace, so I like it already for that alone. I looked up most of the formulas I was using already online, and it doesn't seem all that technical to me, just layered. So far my recharge rates have been almost dead on, give or take 0.1 energy/second resulting from my rounding with certain lengthy numbers. Thanks again though; very nice program overall.
  
  Edit: Don't forget all, if you like or approve of this updated loadout, please rate it positively. Thanks.
• adamantine

  May 09, 2008, 11:00:45 am

  
  

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  lol lots of numbers ran for raw HPs and time.  But you have to take in to consideration the amount of DPS a mission puts out, and how much you actualy recieve a secound with your resists.  in lvl II missions, you should only have to run your reper every now and then with high resists making your tank sustain for the whole fight.  But if your resists are lower, you will have to run your reper more often, and still maybe not be able to keep up... but like i said before for lvl IIs it does not realy matter, but once you get into lvl IIIs and IVs your view on this will change. 
• Oraxius

  May 10, 2008, 03:56:32 pm

  
  

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  No, they won't. The amount of dps coming in isn't what should be focused on. What folks should instead be considering is the total damage the ship can sustain in the least amount of time before both cap and armor run out, when weapons, the repper, and hardners are all active. It's nice if the dps is below your regen/repair rate because then you can continually tank the fight, but later on, that's obviously not going to be the case. What I have posted right now is the best possible combination for raising ones endurance and defense, bar none. I know some may still cry about removing the plate, but go ahead and see how you do without it compared to what I have here. You'll be lucky if you can squeeze out another 4% actual resistance down to around 28%. That difference is negligible compared next to the amount of tank the plate grants. The numbers don't lie my friend. Now if you can show me a calculation that provides a better form of endurance during missions, I will gladly hear it out. 
  
  Edit: The current loadout has performed phenominally well so far during all level 2 missions.
• rudder2008

  May 10, 2008, 04:33:53 pm

  
  

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  For lvl 2's your idea works.  When you do mordus goons lvl 4 or enemies abound 5 and have 55 enemies shooting at you that 4 pct resist becomes massive, and your plate is a helluva lot less that 4 pct of the damage you repair over the course of the fight.  Resists become much more massive later on, so as you progress, concentrate more on them.
• adamantine

  May 12, 2008, 03:52:22 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Oraxius on May 10, 2008, 03:56:32 pm

  No, they won't. The amount of dps coming in isn't what should be focused on. What folks should instead be considering is the total damage the ship can sustain in the least amount of time before both cap and armor run out, when weapons, the repper, and hardners are all active. It's nice if the dps is below your regen/repair rate because then you can continually tank the fight, but later on, that's obviously not going to be the case. What I have posted right now is the best possible combination for raising ones endurance and defense, bar none. I know some may still cry about removing the plate, but go ahead and see how you do without it compared to what I have here. You'll be lucky if you can squeeze out another 4% actual resistance down to around 28%. That difference is negligible compared next to the amount of tank the plate grants. The numbers don't lie my friend. Now if you can show me a calculation that provides a better form of endurance during missions, I will gladly hear it out. 
  
  Edit: The current loadout has performed phenominally well so far during all level 2 missions.
  

  that is where you are wrong.  I can perma tank every lvl IV mission in my Domi Due to having High resists.  If i tried your way, i would have to warp out multiple times during a fight.  There is absolutely no reason to expect to be taking more damage then your tank can handle in lvl IIIs or IVs.  you have to setup your ship to take the damamge coming in, not to last as long as possible before warping out.
  
  (fixed quoteing error)
• rudder2008

  May 12, 2008, 05:04:29 am

  
  

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  Er, not quite getting where i was wrong.  I am arguing high resists.  You are arguing high resists.  aren't we on the same side here?
• adamantine

  May 12, 2008, 05:14:12 am

  
  

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  Quote from: rudder2008 on May 12, 2008, 05:04:29 am

  Er, not quite getting where i was wrong.  I am arguing high resists.  You are arguing high resists.  aren't we on the same side here?
  

  lol sry... did not mean to quote you.... meant to quote the OP.
• manvical

  May 12, 2008, 06:49:17 am

  
  

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  to be honust try out the fitsin eft and come bak with the results, another fit to try is  1 mar and 4 hardeners mission spec so 2 kin and 2 therm against serps or guristas. then change the input dps from omni to specific kin and therm and see the resulting difference
  
  
• Oraxius

  May 13, 2008, 10:16:29 pm

  
  

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  I must still respectfully disagree and refer you to my original post. This is a level 1/s, and/or maybe 3 mission setup; it is not intended for level 4 and 5. By the time you are running those missions, most people are in a battlecruiser or a battleship by that point. Some of you are also still missing my point; you cannot continually and sustainably tank all the damage coming at you after a certain point, and it is that point which some of you seem to be focusing on. We're talking about wholely different scenarios, and even then, even in yours, according to the math, the setup I've posted is still optimal. Run the converted numbers for yourselves if you need to, and you will see I am correct. The amount you can repair goes down due to lost energy on additional hardeners, and even considering the final debate of a membrane versus a plate, the plate still wins since it boosts the effective damage you can take before you are out of energy by much more.
  
  Like I said guys, show me some numbers and I'll believe you, otherwise, stop just saying "nuh uh", which is basically what you are doing now.
  
  Edit: And for the record, I encounter a mix of thermic, kinetic, and explosive damage all the time and I have no freaking idea what I'm going to encounter on which missions. I'm certainly not going to disregard one for another; I'm going to boost them all as much as I can. If you somehow know ahead of time that you won't encounter a specific type, do your own thing and swap for another specific hardener, otherwise, stick to what I've got here now.
• manvical

  May 14, 2008, 01:59:46 am

  
  

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  Hehe ok I ran through the numbers in eft the other day and yes a few things came to light. Using hardeners and med repper only lasts just over 2min (that t2 mar and 4 t2 hardeners) with 1 t2 cap recharger and 1 t2 med battery. The total hp comparison between the plated and non plated versions, the plate wins by almost doubling the total hp. with my skills in cap (4,5), I would be completely stable with 1 recharger 1 bat and 1 relay and the ab turned off in the plated versions. Like I said the cap only lasts just over 2min for the non-plated. but these where taken with omni damage and not specific damage (couldn’t figure out how to specify the input dps), my final resists on the 4 hardened set-up was 80+ on both kin and therm. And the 1 t2 cap recharger and 1 cap battery is better than 2 rechargers but the battery comes with higher fitting reqs (only tested on the thorax).
  
  Ultimately for what you are trying to do I agree that your current set-up is pretty good (maximum total hp) and most of these comments are in fact from players who do lvl4 missions with battleships with rigs. And in lvl4’s resist does win against plating as the engagements last a little longer and the total incoming dps can be very high.
  I will probably test out the 2 set-ups in lvl2 missions and see what happens but with 80+resist for the damage coming in, I don’t think that you would need to have the repper on all the time.
  
  There is an in game website which you can use for missions which is very very very handy for doing missions and it will tell you 1) what damage type you will receive 2) what damage you should be using, in your case with hybrid you cant change the damage type but you can change your drones 3) what to expect in the mission. (Can some one please link the survival guides website as I’m at work and don’t have the linky here). To see what faction your up against look at the mission details and near the objective you should see the symbol of the rat you are against (most of the time)
  
  I would like to ask you to please actually try out the 2 different set-ups in lvl2 missions and see the results, sometimes set-ups can look good on paper but perform badly or vice versa, some times set-ups can be a little overkill.
  And don’t forget that most players tend to sacrifice a little tank for more manoeuvrability, speed and dps, for example instead of fitting the plate you might be able to fit bigger weapons (skills depending) and a magstab. It is possible to reduce the total hp and still survive by reducing the incoming dps faster with increased out going dps and micro managing the repper, ab and weapons to keep cap stable. Another story agreed but when missioning most players tend to complete the missions as fast as possible so they can increase there hourly rate, to do this you have to take into consideration what mission you are doing, what rats you are up against, max total incoming dps and the set-up of your ship…I have three or four different set-ups for my mission domi.
  
  
  
• simo98

  May 14, 2008, 02:01:24 am

  
  

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  ok, i cant be bothered reading the rest of the post and it probably already been said but.. use a vexor or fit blasters
• manvical

  May 14, 2008, 02:28:01 am

  
  

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  lol simo rails are better for missions and he maynot have good drones skills for vexor
• simo98

  May 14, 2008, 02:30:34 am

  
  

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  i know.. but rail + thorax makes baby jesus cry... makes me cry too.
• manvical

  May 14, 2008, 04:30:33 am

  
  

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  haha yeah very true i also think that the vexor is a better mission ship just like its bigger brothers.