Comments

• cadica

  February 12, 2013, 05:56:39 pm

  
  

  Petty Officer 3rd. Class

  
  

  Reputation: 22

  

  
  

  

  Not bad.  If you're fast enough I think the dmg potential of using a TP and kiting AWAY from the target is insanely effective.  If you don't have the speed to keep tacklers off you, or don't have the dmg to drop them before they get a scram on you, then yes, the web is awesome.  But I prefer the TP on the talwar.
• Ghalyen

  February 12, 2013, 06:52:30 pm

  
  

  Master Chief Petty Officer

  
  

  Reputation: 283

  

  
  

  

  yea overall not too bad- youre just going to have to be choosy with your targets. it doesnt happen much, but if you happen to run into a brawly type frig with a full tackle and a MWD, youre probably gonna get popped. they have less DPS than this ship- but the tank can be enough to outlast your dps.
• Ceno

  February 12, 2013, 07:28:40 pm

  
  

  Commodore

  
  

  Reputation: 1661

  

  
  

  

  The important part about the Talwar/Corax is their alpha potential; how much volley damage do you do?
• Boomrider

  February 12, 2013, 07:46:51 pm

  
  

  Lieutenant

  
  

  Reputation: 617

  

  
  

  

  'The important part' is that you kittens still don't realize that the Ti2 dessies aren't meant to kite. The primary role of a destroyer class ship is to take down frigates; but no matter how many nanos and overdrives you're gonna slap on any of them, they're still going to be slower than every frigate in game. The only advantage that the destroyers have over frigates is either dps or tank, and this here talwar has none. It'll HDIAF to practically every t1 frig in game (barring the rifter because it plain sucks in every department) since its life span is measured merely up until it gets scrammed and webbed, and that will happen within 10 sec from the moment the fight starts.
  
  The other important part is that the talwar is a roadkill from start to finish, it is most probably the worst underdog among the sub-cruiser hulls because it plain sucks in any role you put it in. While the algos or the corax can hold their own against frigates, t2 included, and the dragoon devours any cap-dependant frigate, the talwar has absolutely nothing to offer. The only reason CFC doesn't use talwars for suicide tackling is because it is slower and more expensive than their welp rifters.
• Amber Thetawaves

  February 12, 2013, 11:05:21 pm

  
  

  Lieutenant

  
  

  Reputation: 586

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: Boomrider on February 12, 2013, 07:46:51 pm

  'The important part' is that you kittens still don't realize that the Ti2 dessies aren't meant to kite. The primary role of a destroyer class ship is to take down frigates; but no matter how many nanos and overdrives you're gonna slap on any of them, they're still going to be slower than every frigate in game. The only advantage that the destroyers have over frigates is either dps or tank, and this here talwar has none. It'll HDIAF to practically every t1 frig in game (barring the rifter because it plain sucks in every department) since its life span is measured merely up until it gets scrammed and webbed, and that will happen within 10 sec from the moment the fight starts.
  
  The other important part is that the talwar is a roadkill from start to finish, it is most probably the worst underdog among the sub-cruiser hulls because it plain sucks in any role you put it in. While the algos or the corax can hold their own against frigates, t2 included, and the dragoon devours any cap-dependant frigate, the talwar has absolutely nothing to offer. The only reason CFC doesn't use talwars for suicide tackling is because it is slower and more expensive than their welp rifters.
  

  
  this might be a wall of text that hits for over 9000
  
  but it is all wisdom
  
  don't kite in destroyers
• Lamyah

  February 12, 2013, 11:18:03 pm

  
  

  Chief Petty Officer

  
  

  Reputation: 42

  

  
  

  

  I agree with both Amber and Boomrider.
  
  However, just to play devils advocate, this does look like a fairly good way to kill a cruiser. It can kill off drones super fast and be too fast for many cruisers to deal with effectively (like frigates). It may be too thin though with too big of a sig radius.
  
  I dunno. I pretty much only flew destroyers to either salvage (cormorant/ Thrasher) or suicide (thrasher/ catalyst).
  
  What do you fellas think?
  
  PS: What is your speed without the MWD on. That will be pretty important.
  
• quinten

  February 13, 2013, 01:38:42 am

  
  

  Petty Officer 1st. Class

  
  

  Reputation: 53

  

  
  

  

  amber and boomrider should play EVE some more, kiting in desies works fine if flown correctly. having said that, the tier 2 dessies really aren't fast enough to kite most of the time, this one is no exception. If you want to kite in a dessy go get an arty thrasher that does 2500 m/s unheated, much more fun. (please note that the catalyst and thrasher are the fastest dessies now, closely followed by the coercer)
• Ghalyen

  February 13, 2013, 05:58:48 am

  
  

  Master Chief Petty Officer

  
  

  Reputation: 283

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: Boomrider on February 12, 2013, 07:46:51 pm

  'The important part' is that you kittens still don't realize that the Ti2 dessies aren't meant to kite. The primary role of a destroyer class ship is to take down frigates; but no matter how many nanos and overdrives you're gonna slap on any of them, they're still going to be slower than every frigate in game. The only advantage that the destroyers have over frigates is either dps or tank, and this here talwar has none. It'll HDIAF to practically every t1 frig in game (barring the rifter because it plain sucks in every department) since its life span is measured merely up until it gets scrammed and webbed, and that will happen within 10 sec from the moment the fight starts.
  
  The other important part is that the talwar is a roadkill from start to finish, it is most probably the worst underdog among the sub-cruiser hulls because it plain sucks in any role you put it in. While the algos or the corax can hold their own against frigates, t2 included, and the dragoon devours any cap-dependant frigate, the talwar has absolutely nothing to offer. The only reason CFC doesn't use talwars for suicide tackling is because it is slower and more expensive than their welp rifters.
  

  
  This ship could take out AB frigs with some careful piloting- most AB frigs go between 1000 and 1300 m/sec, around 1500 on OH-
  
  but yea, the arty thrasher is about the only destroyer i would personally kite in. If you are strictly a missile pilot, i think the corax is a better missile boat all around for both pvp and pve due to cpu/grid.
  
• Hell G.

  February 13, 2013, 07:49:53 am

  
  

  Lieutenant Commander

  
  

  Reputation: 1006

  

  
  

  

  DPS sucks, use CPU rigs
  Use loki links anyway
• Dorian Troll-mak

  February 13, 2013, 09:10:37 am

  
  

  Crewman Novice

  
  

  Reputation: 19

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: Boomrider on February 12, 2013, 07:46:51 pm

  'The important part' is that you kittens still don't realize that the Ti2 dessies aren't meant to kite. The primary role of a destroyer class ship is to take down frigates; but no matter how many nanos and overdrives you're gonna slap on any of them, they're still going to be slower than every frigate in game. The only advantage that the destroyers have over frigates is either dps or tank, and this here talwar has none. It'll HDIAF to practically every t1 frig in game (barring the rifter because it plain sucks in every department) since its life span is measured merely up until it gets scrammed and webbed, and that will happen within 10 sec from the moment the fight starts.
  
  The other important part is that the talwar is a roadkill from start to finish, it is most probably the worst underdog among the sub-cruiser hulls because it plain sucks in any role you put it in. While the algos or the corax can hold their own against frigates, t2 included, and the dragoon devours any cap-dependant frigate, the talwar has absolutely nothing to offer. The only reason CFC doesn't use talwars for suicide tackling is because it is slower and more expensive than their welp rifters.
  

  
  No Boomrider you are wrong here
  
  It does almost 200 dps and has a web.
  
  I use a rail Cat / Cormy with no propulsion module, and no warp disruptor, and I destroy any frigate besides a heavily tanked MWD assault frigate. But How'm I supposed to kite with no mwd?
  
  It's about dps, and projection.
  
  In fact, the opposite of what you say is true - if you fit a Destroyer for close range, you will never have the speed to get there.
  
  The philosophy of destroyers I follow is simple: DPS, range, and webs in case they get close to you.
  
  I wouldn't fly this setup but I know it works from seeing others fly setups just like it. I think it would be better with a BCS instead of the DC, but I know CPU is tight.
• Ethendir

  February 13, 2013, 10:03:25 am

  
  

  Senior Chief Petty Officer

  
  

  Reputation: 241

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: Boomrider on February 12, 2013, 07:46:51 pm

  'The important part' is that you kittens still don't realize that the Ti2 dessies aren't meant to kite. The primary role of a destroyer class ship is to take down frigates; but no matter how many nanos and overdrives you're gonna slap on any of them, they're still going to be slower than every frigate in game. The only advantage that the destroyers have over frigates is either dps or tank, and this here talwar has none. It'll HDIAF to practically every t1 frig in game (barring the rifter because it plain sucks in every department) since its life span is measured merely up until it gets scrammed and webbed, and that will happen within 10 sec from the moment the fight starts.
  
  The other important part is that the talwar is a roadkill from start to finish, it is most probably the worst underdog among the sub-cruiser hulls because it plain sucks in any role you put it in. While the algos or the corax can hold their own against frigates, t2 included, and the dragoon devours any cap-dependant frigate, the talwar has absolutely nothing to offer. The only reason CFC doesn't use talwars for suicide tackling is because it is slower and more expensive than their welp rifters.
  

  
  It eats MWD Frigate Kiters for lunch, and there is almost no ship that does it better than this (talking of frigs/destroyer). Why? because of great Range and Volley, while having 5k decent EHP (most if the kiting frigates don't have that much tank/range dps). If they are smart, they can disengage because they are faster, but the volley is big (not talking of one shots) and that's why they die in 90% of the fights, that's my experience
  About 2200 m/s cold with quafe is even fast enough to avoid getting tackled by plated frigates or even some unplated.
  Against destroyers it's even better because now you'll have the speed to kite them + dps and range.
  I almost solo killed a shield AC Cane (using a TD instead of web) but I was forced to warp off because of more canes arriving.... (without links or snakes, just quafe)
  
  
  

  Quote from: Ghalyen on February 13, 2013, 05:58:48 am

  I think the corax is a better missile boat all around for both pvp and pve due to cpu/grid.
  
  

  It just can't kite...
  
  
  To the Loadout:
  
  against every small stuff I'd prefer a TP to apply the dps. Web would be better for that but you shouldn't get in web range. TD against bigger stuff or web if you have to kill some drones and don't have to worry about guns
  
  +1, it has almost similar stats than mine though it is quite different.
  
  http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/64156-Kiting-Talwar.html
  
  Bit more volley, 30m/s slower, but you can tweak a TD on there without sacrificing the dps (drop 1 Astronautic Rigg for an POI)
  
  
  
  
• Boomrider

  February 13, 2013, 03:12:24 pm

  
  

  Lieutenant

  
  

  Reputation: 617

  

  
  

  

  Quote

  This ship could take out AB frigs with some careful piloting- most AB frigs go between 1000 and 1300 m/sec, around 1500 on OH-

  
  Since the frig buff (both t1 and t2), only scrubs fit ABs on frigates. Will this abomination kill scrubs ? Undoubtedly. Will it kill any competently fitted and flown frigate ? No chance.
  
  

  Quote

  It eats MWD Frigate Kiters for lunch, and there is almost no ship that does it better than this (talking of frigs/destroyer). Why? because of great Range and Volley, while having 5k decent EHP (most if the kiting frigates don't have that much tank/range dps). If they are smart, they can disengage because they are faster, but the volley is big (not talking of one shots) and that's why they die in 90% of the fights, that's my experience
  About 2200 m/s cold with quafe is even fast enough to avoid getting tackled by plated frigates or even some unplated.
  Against destroyers it's even better because now you'll have the speed to kite them + dps and range.
  I almost solo killed a shield AC Cane (using a TD instead of web) but I was forced to warp off because of more canes arriving.... (without links or snakes, just quafe)
  
  

  
  Dude, let's face it - 90% of EVE are carebears and only 25% of the remaining 10% actually have a clue. The other 75% will happily hit a 500m orbit with an active mwd and if they manage to get a killmail, they start a blog-like threadnaught on BC's kb. Hey, I bet you 5mil ISK that the majority of the lowsec 1337 pee vee pee populace won't be able to comprehensively explain, why they keep fitting ABs on their frigs even though it became meaningless a pretty long time ago; I also bet that they'll try to feed you that old bullshit story about how 'mwd's are exclusively for 0.0'. But I digress.
  
  Now, let's try listing the truly effective kiting frigates:
  
  1) Slicer
  2) Arty Wolf
  3) Nanoretrib
  4) Hookbill (?)
  
  The rest are just not meant for it, and even if some are fitted for kiting, the 3(4) above mentioned do it best. Do you really think that the talwar in question can kill any of these, before they kill him ?
  
  

  Quote from: Dorian Troll-mak on February 13, 2013, 09:10:37 am

  
  No Boomrider you are wrong here
  
  It does almost 200 dps and has a web.
  
  I use a rail Cat / Cormy with no propulsion module, and no warp disruptor, and I destroy any frigate besides a heavily tanked MWD assault frigate. But How'm I supposed to kite with no mwd?
  
  It's about dps, and projection.
  
  In fact, the opposite of what you say is true - if you fit a Destroyer for close range, you will never have the speed to get there.
  
  The philosophy of destroyers I follow is simple: DPS, range, and webs in case they get close to you.
  
  I wouldn't fly this setup but I know it works from seeing others fly setups just like it. I think it would be better with a BCS instead of the DC, but I know CPU is tight.
  

  
  I think what I said was easy enough to read and comprehend, but apparently it wasn't. Try reading my post again and actually pay attention this time. Hint: 1st sentence, 2/3 towards the end. When done and understood, I don't think you'll use your sniping cormorant as a valid argument anymore.
• Dorian Troll-mak

  February 13, 2013, 03:53:19 pm

  
  

  Crewman Novice

  
  

  Reputation: 19

  

  
  

  

  So you think missiles are worse for kiting than turrets?
  
  Cause that's the difference between the Cormorant / Corax, and between the Thrasher / Talwar.
• Garviell

  February 13, 2013, 03:54:23 pm

  
  

  Chief Petty Officer

  
  

  Reputation: 81

  

  
  

  

  Hmm i think this has some merit
  
  Keeping the web pre overheated and some good reflexes might save you when your shitty speed it failing you
• Raptim Sicario

  February 14, 2013, 03:25:19 am

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

  Reputation: 158

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: Garviell on February 13, 2013, 03:54:23 pm

  Hmm i think this has some merit
  
  Keeping the web pre overheated and some good reflexes might save you when your shitty speed it failing you
  

  
  That is exactly the purpose of it. I even use a web on my condor because it's a great application to have on kiters, when you mess up, good against people trying to slingshot and lay scrambler or even if you warp on top of a bad situation it will help you get away and establish your comfort zone.
  
  
• Raptim Sicario

  February 14, 2013, 03:33:10 am

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

  Reputation: 158

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: Ethendir on February 13, 2013, 10:03:25 am

  Quote from: Boomrider on February 12, 2013, 07:46:51 pm

  'The important part' is that you kittens still don't realize that the Ti2 dessies aren't meant to kite. The primary role of a destroyer class ship is to take down frigates; but no matter how many nanos and overdrives you're gonna slap on any of them, they're still going to be slower than every frigate in game. The only advantage that the destroyers have over frigates is either dps or tank, and this here talwar has none. It'll HDIAF to practically every t1 frig in game (barring the rifter because it plain sucks in every department) since its life span is measured merely up until it gets scrammed and webbed, and that will happen within 10 sec from the moment the fight starts.
  
  The other important part is that the talwar is a roadkill from start to finish, it is most probably the worst underdog among the sub-cruiser hulls because it plain sucks in any role you put it in. While the algos or the corax can hold their own against frigates, t2 included, and the dragoon devours any cap-dependant frigate, the talwar has absolutely nothing to offer. The only reason CFC doesn't use talwars for suicide tackling is because it is slower and more expensive than their welp rifters.
  

  
  It eats MWD Frigate Kiters for lunch, and there is almost no ship that does it better than this (talking of frigs/destroyer). Why? because of great Range and Volley, while having 5k decent EHP (most if the kiting frigates don't have that much tank/range dps). If they are smart, they can disengage because they are faster, but the volley is big (not talking of one shots) and that's why they die in 90% of the fights, that's my experience
  About 2200 m/s cold with quafe is even fast enough to avoid getting tackled by plated frigates or even some unplated.
  Against destroyers it's even better because now you'll have the speed to kite them + dps and range.
  I almost solo killed a shield AC Cane (using a TD instead of web) but I was forced to warp off because of more canes arriving.... (without links or snakes, just quafe)
  
  
  

  Quote from: Ghalyen on February 13, 2013, 05:58:48 am

  I think the corax is a better missile boat all around for both pvp and pve due to cpu/grid.
  
  

  It just can't kite...
  
  
  To the Loadout:
  
  against every small stuff I'd prefer a TP to apply the dps. Web would be better for that but you shouldn't get in web range. TD against bigger stuff or web if you have to kill some drones and don't have to worry about guns
  
  +1, it's has almost similar stats than mine though it is quite different.
  
  http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/64156-Kiting-Talwar.html
  
  Bit more volley, 30m/s slower, but you can tweak a TD on there without sacrificing the dps (drop 1 Astronautic Rigg for an POI)
  
  
  
  
  

  
  Your loadout was a starting point for this idea, also when I read the comments mr Maz3rs comment on your loadout who knows what he's talking about.
  
  

  Quote from: maz3r on December 26, 2012, 06:52:49 am

  Quote from: Netheran on December 25, 2012, 04:31:54 pm

  TD > Tp
  

  
  web>td>tp
  

  
  I'm still not entirely sure where the -1 came from, if the person could specify why I'd be grateful.
• Raptim Sicario

  February 14, 2013, 03:40:05 am

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

  Reputation: 158

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: Ghalyen on February 13, 2013, 05:58:48 am

  Quote from: Boomrider on February 12, 2013, 07:46:51 pm

  'The important part' is that you kittens still don't realize that the Ti2 dessies aren't meant to kite. The primary role of a destroyer class ship is to take down frigates; but no matter how many nanos and overdrives you're gonna slap on any of them, they're still going to be slower than every frigate in game. The only advantage that the destroyers have over frigates is either dps or tank, and this here talwar has none. It'll HDIAF to practically every t1 frig in game (barring the rifter because it plain sucks in every department) since its life span is measured merely up until it gets scrammed and webbed, and that will happen within 10 sec from the moment the fight starts.
  
  The other important part is that the talwar is a roadkill from start to finish, it is most probably the worst underdog among the sub-cruiser hulls because it plain sucks in any role you put it in. While the algos or the corax can hold their own against frigates, t2 included, and the dragoon devours any cap-dependant frigate, the talwar has absolutely nothing to offer. The only reason CFC doesn't use talwars for suicide tackling is because it is slower and more expensive than their welp rifters.
  

  
  This ship could take out AB frigs with some careful piloting- most AB frigs go between 1000 and 1300 m/sec, around 1500 on OH-
  
  but yea, the arty thrasher is about the only destroyer i would personally kite in. If you are strictly a missile pilot, i think the corax is a better missile boat all around for both pvp and pve due to cpu/grid.
  
  

  
  This talwar pwns arty thrasher  with ease. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16371042
  
  The fact that if frigs lay scram on you in an arty means you are CERTAINLY going to die http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16277758
  
  Talwar can still hit, effectively long range or short range with awesome volley, which automatically makes it a better ship in my eyes <3
• Stefan33

  February 14, 2013, 06:15:25 am

  
  

  Crewman Recruit

  
  

  Reputation: 3

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: Ceno on February 12, 2013, 07:28:40 pm

  The important part about the Talwar/Corax is their alpha potential; how much volley damage do you do?
  

  
  Can do 1535 with fury nova
              1257 with CN nova
• Ethendir

  February 14, 2013, 06:39:51 am

  
  

  Senior Chief Petty Officer

  
  

  Reputation: 241

  

  
  

  

  @ Boomrider:
  don't know how you fit your ships or what fitting you use, but this one kills arti wolfs as well as paper slicers or stuff like that... 208dps (about 1500 volley!!!) combined with more than 30km range without falloff and 5k EHP...
  Wolf has less dps at range and less EHP for example, against slicers or stuff like that, it's even easier...... it kills every kiter you listed... what is the biggest fear of every kiter? long range missiles, it's nearly that simple....
  
  Havn't had a fight against a arti wolf under real conditions, just tried it at the testserver when i tested my loadout under clear conditions and I won (Wolf pilot had nearly all lvl5 skills, bit better than my missiles skills). 
  
  
• Boomrider

  February 14, 2013, 02:53:31 pm

  
  

  Lieutenant

  
  

  Reputation: 617

  

  
  

  

  Well then, come back when you have any TQ killmail to show. Talk is cheap