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• Seriously Bored

  October 02, 2009, 05:19:01 pm

  
  

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  I'd like to make a note of modules I commonly switched out:
  
  4th Gyro instead of Damage Control
  LiF Fueled Booser Rockets instead of Tracking Computer
  Photon Scattering Field II for one of the Invulnerability Field IIs
  
  You can't just fit it and fly it once like you can with the Vargur, but it's still a good ship.
• vicror

  October 02, 2009, 05:58:30 pm

  
  

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  nice graph.  someone likes their matar ships.
• Seriously Bored

  October 02, 2009, 07:35:10 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: vicror on October 02, 2009, 05:58:30 pm

  nice graph.  someone likes thier matar ships.
  

  
  Thanks. And yep, "In rust we trust."
• ripp

  October 05, 2009, 03:35:19 am

  
  

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  This is a wicked setup, I use this to chew through lev 4s.
  nice work SB
• Seriously Bored

  October 08, 2009, 01:46:08 pm

  
  

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  Adding the following to the main description:
  
  I'm ditching the Tracking Computer II and Damage Control II for a Tracking Enhancer II and 100MN Afterburner II.
  
  The reason? This thing already tanks well enough for most L4 missions, and therefore getting into range is more important for completing the mission faster. After Dominion comes out, the Tracking Enhancer will give a 15% falloff boost as well, which means you'll end up with 53KM falloff...which is pretty freaking close to what a Vargur has now. Switch out list stays the same, however.
• Caeron

  October 16, 2009, 04:20:45 am

  
  

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  Hello, pretty new Minmatar player here (using a Hurricane for l3 missions) and looking into this fit for my first BS. (eventually of course, about 100 days more training to do for all the t2's)
  
  Playing with EFT and with minimal skills needed to equip this ship I get about 1min 15s of cap time with everything on, and about 10:18 with the shield booster off. While flying this are you supposed to pulse the booster or am I just too underskilled for this fit?
  
  Thanks for all the great minnie fits and the info.
• vicror

  October 16, 2009, 05:29:45 am

  
  

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  with the range of the arty guns not much will be close enough to cause you to use your sb.  but, when you do yes pulse it.  also, did you notice the cap booster.  try right clicking on it in eft and changing the charges to 800's see what happens.
• Seriously Bored

  October 16, 2009, 07:27:05 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Caeron on October 16, 2009, 04:20:45 am

  Playing with EFT and with minimal skills needed to equip this ship I get about 1min 15s of cap time with everything on, and about 10:18 with the shield booster off. While flying this are you supposed to pulse the booster or am I just too underskilled for this fit?
  
  Thanks for all the great minnie fits and the info.
  

  
  Glad you like it! If you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you hit that little + sign on the fit. 
  
  As Vicror pointed out, you should right click the cap booster and put CB800 charges in it. The shield booster actually runs a little ahead of the cap booster, but if you manage your tank and aggro properly, you should be able to get through almost any mission.
  
  One thing though, Vicror: This thing has ACs, not Artillery. It's meant to get in there a bit and brawl, but does better damage than Artillery out to around 40KM. Performs very close to the Varg, if that's where you want to end up.
• Richard Dastardly

  October 16, 2009, 08:10:01 am

  
  

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  For most missions a large SB is plenty, which means you don't need the cap booster, which leaves you room for a DC and another hardener, and I'd use another hardener instead of a SBA too; taking less damage beats repping less damage anyday ( and leaves you more cap to waste attempting to thrash the whale around with the AB... ). This is nice for those odd missions where you need a huge tank though.
  
  Also, fit a pair of t2 ambits, they're cheap.
• Seriously Bored

  October 16, 2009, 08:36:52 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Richard Dastardly on October 16, 2009, 08:10:01 am

  For most missions a large SB is plenty, which means you don't need the cap booster, which leaves you room for a DC and another hardener, and I'd use another hardener instead of a SBA too; taking less damage beats repping less damage anyday ( and leaves you more cap to waste attempting to thrash the whale around with the AB... ). This is nice for those odd missions where you need a huge tank though.

  
  I think your suggestions are great, and can definitely work. I want to go into a little bit of math though, on why replacing the SBA with a hardener is actually less cap efficient.
  
  Simply put: In PVE, unless you're being remote repped by someone, damage tanked is damage tanked. If you take 30% less damage, but your booster gives you 30% less HP, you need to run the booster the exact same amount as if you took 30% more damage, but boosted 30% more HP. Because of the stacking penalties, using an SBA is actually more cap efficient, and leads to a higher stable DPS repaired rate, than use more hardeners.
  
  It kind of comes down to preference, but using a SBA also amplifies the effect if you have Crystal implants, since the two don't stack with each other. It's a better choice, all things considered.
  
  Your suggestion about the other modules is really intriguing though. I'm going to boot up EFT and look into how downgrading to a Large Shield Booster would pan out.
  
  

  Quote

  Also, fit a pair of t2 ambits, they're cheap.
  

  
  I'd recommend using T2 ambits if you have the cash. But though "cheap" by most T2 rig standards, 3x T2 ambits would more than double the price if this setup.
• Richard Dastardly

  October 18, 2009, 04:04:46 pm

  
  

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  Your comparison didn't include passive regen, which I've found most of the time is all you need. I did two Angel Blockades in a row earlier and I think I probably used 15 booster cycles for the whole thing. Sometime I'll slap on an extra invuln & see if I can passive tank the whole thing.
  
  TBH though most of the time I use AB/Lsb/3 hardeners/cap recharger which provided the best balance of cap use for the way I fly, so I can't really talk all that much
• Seriously Bored

  October 19, 2009, 02:46:26 pm

  
  

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  UPDATED! I finally figured out how to get rid of the damn Co-Proc and improve the ship at the same time. Wewt
  
  And glad you like it, Dastardly!
• Seriously Bored

  October 20, 2009, 09:30:26 pm

  
  

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  Updated yet again. Thanks to comments from Liang and other EVE-O folks on getting the 800mm ACs to fit without a Co-Proc, and with 2x TE IIs.
  
  And for showing me the light that 3x Hardeners > 2x Hardeners + SBA on cap boosted setups.
• Liang

  October 22, 2009, 01:51:31 pm

  
  

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  You're welcome. ;-)
  
  -Liang
• vicror

  October 22, 2009, 02:13:56 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Seriously Bored on October 20, 2009, 09:30:26 pm

  Updated yet again. Thanks to comments from Liang and other EVE-O folks on getting the 800mm ACs to fit without a Co-Proc, and with 2x TE IIs.
  
  And for showing me the light that 3x Hardeners > 2x Hardeners + SBA on cap boosted setups.
  

  cap boosters work well, allows you to fit more gank and still have the cap when needed.  I don't need to use it vm but is necessary.  got one on my nm, this is my setup with the exception of my rigs are all still ccc.  http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/29777-Nightmare-Bad-Dreams.html
• Seriously Bored

  October 22, 2009, 10:07:52 pm

  
  

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  Ugh....forgot to update the lows like a noob. For Eff's Sake, I hope this is the last time I update this thing in a while.
  
  Fit is now accurate for the stats presented. And good to hear you're having success with cap boosters yourself Vic.
• Holymoly

  October 27, 2009, 02:40:25 pm

  
  

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  Umm....while the numbers look good I wonder at the effectiveness against stuff orbiting you at 50k. Even with an AB a BS still moves pretty damn slow to close the range.
• Seriously Bored

  October 27, 2009, 04:08:06 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Holymoly on October 27, 2009, 02:40:25 pm

  Umm....while the numbers look good I wonder at the effectiveness against stuff orbiting you at 50k. Even with an AB a BS still moves pretty damn slow to close the range.
  

  
  As it currently is, I wouldn't use this setup on a mission where I expect to do most of my fighting at 50KM. I'd have a separate artillery fit for that (which is fine with the rigs as well, though a bit less useful).
  
  Post-Dominion, it should hit at 50KM pretty well. Though I still strongly recommend cherry-picking Angel missions, where bruising up close pays off.
• Ottakringer

  November 01, 2009, 07:33:20 am

  
  

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  You could switch the AB to a Republic Fleet AB, it is relative cheap and improves speed and cap stability.
  
  Very good fit, +1 from me
• Seriously Bored

  November 03, 2009, 04:05:24 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Ottakringer on November 01, 2009, 07:33:20 am

  You could switch the AB to a Republic Fleet AB, it is relative cheap and improves speed and cap stability.
  
  Very good fit, +1 from me
  

  
  Thanks! I meant to address this post earlier, but I keep forgetting to check the market price on the RF AB. Though it would probably help, I try to keep my fits on here as cheap and efficient as possible. The tank does pretty well already.
• Caeron

  November 06, 2009, 04:07:44 am

  
  

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  Me again, just wanted to ask how this fit would fare without the t2 guns/ammo. I'm training for t2 weaponry but takes hell of a time
• Seriously Bored

  November 06, 2009, 10:11:44 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Caeron on November 06, 2009, 04:07:44 am

  Me again, just wanted to ask how this fit would fare without the t2 guns/ammo. I'm training for t2 weaponry but takes hell of a time
  

  
  It would fare pretty poorly, unfortunately, on the currently live version. The reason is that ship is damn slow, and Barrage helps you do decent damage while you get into range. After Dominion, it might be able to fare well though, because of the (potentially) big falloff changes coming.
  
  In the mean time, without T2 guns, you might do better with an artillery fit.
• Caeron

  December 01, 2009, 11:25:22 pm

  
  

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  Hello, just posting some post-dominion stats (for my meager skills) with meta4 800mm AC's (3*t2 gyros and 2*t2 TE's) :
  
  Carbonized Lead Ammo (long range, %5 tracking bonus) :
  11km optimal, 39km falloff, 0,0618~rad/sec tracking
  Titanium Sabot Ammo (mid range, %25 tracking bonus) :
  7175m optimal, 39km falloff, 0,0706~rad/sec tracking
  EMP (short range, no tracking bonus) :
  3587m optimal, 39 falloff, 0,0588~rad/sec tracking
  
  I'm just experimenting with my tank and if I'm comfy I may be tempted to switch in a tracking computer in there for the extra tracking/range.
  
  Now to take this baby out for a try
  
  Thanks for the great explanations on all your builds, they really are educational and inspiring.
• Seriously Bored

  December 03, 2009, 08:22:41 pm

  
  

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  This loadout has been updated
  
  And is now ready for Dominion :)
• Ottakringer

  December 06, 2009, 02:40:17 pm

  
  

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  Why do you use a Burst Aerator and not a Collision Accellerator Rig?
  The damage is the same, but using the CA you get a higher alpha
• Seriously Bored

  December 06, 2009, 09:35:29 pm

  
  

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  This loadout has been updated
  
  _________
  
  
  

  Quote from: Ottakringer on December 06, 2009, 02:40:17 pm

  Why do you use a Burst Aerator and not a Collision Accellerator Rig?
  The damage is the same, but using the CA you get a higher alpha
  

  
  Usually, ROF > +Damage if they are equal percentages. But in this case, the addition is small enough that the final DPS values are the same either way.  I changed the rig for higher alpha :)
  
  Thanks for the suggestion.
• theolein

  December 10, 2009, 06:23:23 am

  
  

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  Love the setup, SB. I'm going to drop one of my shield rigs for an Ambit (but I'll keep my EM shield rig, as it helps in Smash the Suppliers) and then I'll have the same setup as you.
  
  It blew me over a few days ago to find the Mael's 800mm's hitting and doing damage at 30km's plus. And this with RF EMP. Why do I use RF AMMO, even it's so expensive, well, because the DPS is much higher than standard, and I don't have to worry about tracking so much. Also RF is cheapish from the LP store and the time saved per mission is time I can spend doing PvP.
  
  Pre-Dominion, I used to use 1400mm's for the Smash the Suppliers mission, but now, I think I'll use whyt I've recently been using: A tanked, cap stable Domi with large armour/shield repper and heavy armour/shield drones. The way I do it is pretty obvious, warp in with main, aggro the room, warp in alt, rep, blow npc's away.
• jimmyjoe

  December 15, 2009, 12:59:52 pm

  
  

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  great setup, almost identical to the one i use (just more expensive)
  
   +2 from me
• jimmyjoe

  December 15, 2009, 01:00:29 pm

  
  

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  note: i meant mines more expensive
• jimmyjoe

  December 15, 2009, 01:00:40 pm

  
  

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  note: i meant mines more expensive
• Seriously Bored

  December 16, 2009, 07:30:59 am

  
  

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  Quote from: jimmyjoe on December 15, 2009, 12:59:52 pm

  great setup, almost identical to the one i use (just more expensive)
  
   +2 from me
  

  
  Thanks! Yeah, there's plenty of room for pimping on this setup (and I'm curious how you fit yours, actually), but I try to keep my T1 setups accessible to the masses.
  
  Definitely upgrade as the funds are available, however.
• jimmyjoe

  December 17, 2009, 12:20:48 pm

  
  

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  well its basically this fit, just "pimped" , and t2 shield rig
  
  still looking for a good price on a gist a-type or pith
• Cyrusol

  December 19, 2009, 04:03:45 am

  
  

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  needs alot of sp to fit t2 weps and to use this shield setup. too much imo.
• mistforever

  December 19, 2009, 07:21:18 am

  
  

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  Hm i thinking about Vargur like second ship, i doing mish with golem and maelstrom right now. Golem tank and torpedo dmg, and maelstrom amazing dmg 1400mm how (Thanks Dominion)but  without tank because i dont need it.. I was thinking to switch 1400mm for 800mm repeating but still not sure.
• Woad

  December 25, 2009, 09:43:49 pm

  
  

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  Love the set up. Love it more now with a couple of changes.
  Stuck in a GIST X-Type X Large SB for 707/sec Shield Recharge Rate with my SP.
  Always used to use Faction Ammo, this build chews through it, so went back to standard. The moneyy saved allowed RF 800's to replace 800mm T2. This solved several hassles (CPU from 790.4/800 to 642.8/800) and DPS increased from 697 to 722 (still using standard). And 83% Cap Stable using normal 800 BC with everything runing, just made things easier.  Buzzkill became Buzzsawed and AE became Slaughterfest just with less gore.
  
  Going to use the same set up with the Varg (when I get there) and see how we go.
• blair wraith

  January 03, 2010, 03:19:17 am

  
  

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  great fit. +1.
  
• Borgor Brag

  January 16, 2010, 04:07:32 am

  
  

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  I really like this setup, but I cant use the T2 guns yet.. 
  
  Is there any Maelstrom fit that is capable of running lvl 4 missions AND not highly skill intensive?
• Seriously Bored

  January 18, 2010, 09:33:23 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Borgor Brag on January 16, 2010, 04:07:32 am

  I really like this setup, but I cant use the T2 guns yet.. 
  
  Is there any Maelstrom fit that is capable of running lvl 4 missions AND not highly skill intensive?
  

  
  You might have more success with an artillery setup like this, then. Just use T1 guns instead of the T2 ones.
  
  An AC Mael is very dependent on Barrage though, because the normal T1 ammo won't have the range to hit all the targets in a mission. Without T2, arties are probably your friend.
• nuker688

  January 18, 2010, 09:39:52 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Borgor Brag on January 16, 2010, 04:07:32 am

  I really like this setup, but I cant use the T2 guns yet.. 
  
  Is there any Maelstrom fit that is capable of running lvl 4 missions AND not highly skill intensive?
  

  
  [Maelstrom, LVL4]
  
  8x 1200mm Heavy Prototype I Siege Cannon
  
  LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
  'Copasetic' I Particle Field Acceleration
  X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
  2x V-M15 Braced Multispectral Shield Matrix
  Cap Recharger II
  
  3x Gyrostabilizer II
  2x Tracking Enhancer II
  
  3x Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
  
  5x Hammerhead II
  
  
  I used this fit until I was fully t2, watch your tank and it will do okay. Of course swap hardeners and choose the ab/web/+1 hardener according to the mission.
  
  Nice fit on the 800's tho, trying it out now.
  
• Decept0r

  January 19, 2010, 04:31:25 pm

  
  

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  Do you think this fit would work okay with a co-processor and 2 T2 Gyros instead of 3 Republic Fleet Gyros? Also, how much is this build dependent on T2 Heavy Drones? Will just T2 Medium drones work okay?
• Seriously Bored

  January 20, 2010, 08:55:17 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Decept0r on January 19, 2010, 04:31:25 pm

  Do you think this fit would work okay with a co-processor and 2 T2 Gyros instead of 3 Republic Fleet Gyros? Also, how much is this build dependent on T2 Heavy Drones? Will just T2 Medium drones work okay?
  

  
  If you aren't going to use the RF Gyros (understandable, but I strongly, strongly recommend them for missioning), you would be better off replacing the XL Shield Booster II with a C5-L X-Large Shield Booster instead of using fewer gyrostabilizers.
  
  More damage = faster missions = more money, and the reduction in tank isn't that significant. (More ships dead faster also reduces your dependence on a beefy tank.)
  
  If you can't use T2 Heavies, using 5x T2 Medium drones is 100% fine. The only reason I have heavies on there is because I've found T2 Medium drones more than do the job of killing mission frigs including Spider Drones, so having a flight of T2 Lights seemed like a waste. With 2x Heavies and 5x Mediums, I send out the medium drones to kill everything until only BSs remain, and then I recall two of the mediums and send out the heavies for better damage against the BS/BCs.
• Decept0r

  January 20, 2010, 06:08:06 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Seriously Bored on January 20, 2010, 08:55:17 am

  Quote from: Decept0r on January 19, 2010, 04:31:25 pm

  Do you think this fit would work okay with a co-processor and 2 T2 Gyros instead of 3 Republic Fleet Gyros? Also, how much is this build dependent on T2 Heavy Drones? Will just T2 Medium drones work okay?
  

  
  If you aren't going to use the RF Gyros (understandable, but I strongly, strongly recommend them for missioning), you would be better off replacing the XL Shield Booster II with a C5-L X-Large Shield Booster instead of using fewer gyrostabilizers.
  
  More damage = faster missions = more money, and the reduction in tank isn't that significant. (More ships dead faster also reduces your dependence on a beefy tank.)
  
  If you can't use T2 Heavies, using 5x T2 Medium drones is 100% fine. The only reason I have heavies on there is because I've found T2 Medium drones more than do the job of killing mission frigs including Spider Drones, so having a flight of T2 Lights seemed like a waste. With 2x Heavies and 5x Mediums, I send out the medium drones to kill everything until only BSs remain, and then I recall two of the mediums and send out the heavies for better damage against the BS/BCs.
  

  
  Alright thanks, looks like I just so happen to have one of those laying around the garage. Thanks for the suggestion/advice!
• PinkJotunn

  January 30, 2010, 03:44:09 am

  
  

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  +1 coming from a Raven to Maelstrom with this setup.
  Also, a few posts up is a question about T1 guns... I can only use T1 so I chose 800mm 'Scout' + Fusion + Gyrostab II (missioning against Angels) - works great!
  
  btw, WTS Raven lol
• Zee87

  February 26, 2010, 06:33:25 pm

  
  

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  +1
  
  Thanks SB, this setup rocks. I did mine a bit different though, I have 2 gyros and 3 tracking enhancers in the lows... then for rigs, I have 2 core defence cap safeguards, and 1 em screen reinforcer.
  
  66km accuracy falloff (w/ barrage), which is ample. 651 DPS at my skills (still about 100 dps more than my cruise missile CNR), but I find the extra tracking to be more useful over more dps.
• Richard Dastardly

  March 01, 2010, 11:45:35 am

  
  

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  Looking again, I still don't like cap safeguard rigs, especially a) with AB, and b) with a cap booster. Ignoring the drain from hardeners, your cap is used for shield boost, and manoevering, so; great, less cap per rep, but it doesn't help the AB/MWD at all, other than having more free cap. A CCC won't make you use less cap per rep, but it gives a greater available pool of cap to use for both cap-munching mods, and also has no drawback so you take a little less damage.
  
  TBH a cap booster is all the cap mod you need anyway, I'd rather either fit another ambit or a metastasis rig in there.
• Seriously Bored

  March 01, 2010, 01:58:24 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Richard Dastardly on March 01, 2010, 11:45:35 am

  Looking again, I still don't like cap safeguard rigs, especially a) with AB, and b) with a cap booster. Ignoring the drain from hardeners, your cap is used for shield boost, and manoevering, so; great, less cap per rep, but it doesn't help the AB/MWD at all, other than having more free cap. A CCC won't make you use less cap per rep, but it gives a greater available pool of cap to use for both cap-munching mods, and also has no drawback so you take a little less damage.
  
  TBH a cap booster is all the cap mod you need anyway, I'd rather either fit another ambit or a metastasis rig in there.
  

  
  Excellent enough logic for me. I'll take a peek into what I feel would be the most optimal rig replacement (I need to take a look over what stacking penalties are applying where), but thanks for the suggestions for improvement! I'll try to have it updated soon.
• Zee87

  March 03, 2010, 10:37:49 am

  
  

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  I decided to use a tracking comp (no script) instead of an afterburner on my setup.
  
  I also dropped 1 tracking enhancer, and fit a 3rd gyrostab (2 faction, 1 T2). w/ Barrage, gets 61km accuracy falloff (764 DPS), and it also helped with cap's longevity. I usually only carry 10 cap booster 800's, with extra ammo.
• Seriously Bored

  March 04, 2010, 06:08:05 am

  
  

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  I ended up taking Richard Dastardly's advice, and went with a Metastasis rig instead of the CDCS.
  
  Why a tracking rig? Another ambit added only 3KM to falloff distance, compared to the ~10% of the rig (two TEs were already on there, but provided less bonus).
  
  Given that the Maelstrom has a huge deficit in tracking compared to the Vargur, I figured it was the most efficient route. Thanks for the comments folks!
  
   :kona:
  
• Archie Benedict

  March 05, 2010, 03:58:03 pm

  
  

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  So this only works well on Angel missions?
• Zee87

  March 05, 2010, 05:40:23 pm

  
  

  Petty Officer 3rd. Class

  
  

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  Quote from: Archie Benedict on March 05, 2010, 03:58:03 pm

  So this only works well on Angel missions?
  

  
  I used it for lots of missions, and it did them all well... Angel, Sansha, Serpentis, Guristas, Amarr, Caldari, Gallente... They all died quickly.
  
  Even using Barrage vs targets that are weak to EM, it tore them down like they were nothing.
• juggertakashi

  March 12, 2010, 11:42:48 pm

  
  

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  Good dmg, good range, :censored: ing crap for cap, if its a 5-pocket deadspace, prepare to dock often to refuel
• Seriously Bored

  March 13, 2010, 01:19:43 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: juggertakashi on March 12, 2010, 11:42:48 pm

  Good dmg, good range,  ing crap for cap, if its a 5-pocket deadspace, prepare to dock often to refuel
  

  
  To be fair, that's what the heavy cap booster is for. IIRC, I never had to redock for more charges on World's Collide, and that was before Dominion. (I've since moved on to the Vargur.) Of course, I was a bit more stingy with my cap charges as well, only using them when I was below 20% cap.
  
  Ah well, I'll take my first -1. It was coming eventually.
• vicror

  March 13, 2010, 01:49:47 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: juggertakashi on March 12, 2010, 11:42:48 pm

  Good dmg, good range, ing crap for cap, if its a 5-pocket deadspace, prepare to dock often to refuel
  

  This may sound crazy.  But, expanded cargoholds exist for a reason.
  
  Becides, like the op said.  Learn how to manage the sb and cap.  Only use caps and sb at peak recharge.
• Zee87

  March 14, 2010, 12:54:05 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Seriously Bored on March 13, 2010, 01:19:43 pm

  Quote from: juggertakashi on March 12, 2010, 11:42:48 pm

  Good dmg, good range,  ing crap for cap, if its a 5-pocket deadspace, prepare to dock often to refuel
  

  
  To be fair, that's what the heavy cap booster is for. IIRC, I never had to redock for more charges on World's Collide, and that was before Dominion. (I've since moved on to the Vargur.) Of course, I was a bit more stingy with my cap charges as well, only using them when I was below 20% cap.
  
  Ah well, I'll take my first -1. It was coming eventually.
  

  
  lol don't worry. It was probably just some Caldari carebear, who flies a Raven with a ton of cap recharge, and no DPS.
• Celdric

  March 18, 2010, 10:50:45 am

  
  

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  hi
  
  I just looked at this fitting and it's great ... i would copy it if i could ( skills not trained and so on )
  
  so I replaced:
  the t2 weapons with t1 800mm proto siege cannons, one metastasis adjuster with an anti-em screen, and the explosion dampening with a target painter t2 in order to regain the loss in falloff ...
  
  can i fit like that or is that setup crap ?
• vicror

  March 18, 2010, 10:57:41 am

  
  

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  t1 guns sound like crap.  can't hurt to try it and find out.
• Seriously Bored

  March 18, 2010, 01:24:30 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Celdric on March 18, 2010, 10:50:45 am

  hi
  
  I just looked at this fitting and it's great ... i would copy it if i could ( skills not trained and so on )
  
  so I replaced:
  the t2 weapons with t1 800mm proto siege cannons, one metastasis adjuster with an anti-em screen, and the explosion dampening with a target painter t2 in order to regain the loss in falloff ...
  
  can i fit like that or is that setup crap ?
  

  
  The issue of using the AC Maelstrom is range, and without being able to use Barrage, your range is essentially limited to a 30KM sphere around your ship for good damage.
  
  In your situation, I would probably go with 1200mm or 1400mm artillery until I had T2 ACs trained. (If you use 1400mm arties, be sure to leave them ungrouped, or in grouped of 2 guns at most.)
  
  Best of luck!
• 23gabe

  March 18, 2010, 01:49:58 pm

  
  

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  this looks fine, just curious to why you don't use a faction or deadspace medium shield booster so that you could drop that silly cap booster.
• Seriously Bored

  March 18, 2010, 07:47:15 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: 23gabe on March 18, 2010, 01:49:58 pm

  this looks fine, just curious to why you don't use a faction or deadspace medium shield booster so that you could drop that silly cap booster.
  

  
  This is a good question, but the short answer is that the tank would be worse, and it would still run into cap issues.
  
  A single deadspace medium shield booster could run indefinitely with this setup, but it would be a desperately thin tank for how close this ship usually is to the damage. Two medium deadspace boosters couldn't be sustained for very long at all, and that would preclude every turning on the afterburner. I'm very unwilling to sacrifice damage for cap stability, because applied damage is what makes you money, not perma-tanking.
  
  The XL Booster offers good burst effectiveness for when things get hairy, and runs for a much longer time than you would think if you just pay a marginal amount of attention to your shield and cap boosters.
  
  I guess the other reason is that I set out for this to be a completely T2 fit. Somewhere along the way I cheated by adding the RF Gyros, but to be honest, I think RF Gyros should be on everyone's short list if they're serious about missioning with a Minnie ship.  With the exception of one or two fits, I've been on a kick of trying to get the most performance for the buck out of my fits because I think BC is full of enough fantasy fits. 
  
  
  (Hope that wasn't an annoyingly long response for a simple question.)
• 23gabe

  March 18, 2010, 07:51:53 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Seriously Bored on March 18, 2010, 07:47:15 pm

  Quote from: 23gabe on March 18, 2010, 01:49:58 pm

  this looks fine, just curious to why you don't use a faction or deadspace medium shield booster so that you could drop that silly cap booster.
  

  
  This is a good question, but the short answer is that the tank would be worse, and it would still run into cap issues.
  
  A single deadspace medium shield booster could run indefinitely with this setup, but it would be a desperately thin tank for how close this ship usually is to the damage. Two medium deadspace boosters couldn't be sustained for very long at all, and that would preclude every turning on the afterburner. I'm very unwilling to sacrifice damage for cap stability, because applied damage is what makes you money, not perma-tanking.
  
  The XL Booster offers good burst effectiveness for when things get hairy, and runs for a much longer time than you would think if you just pay a marginal amount of attention to your shield and cap boosters.
  
  I guess the other reason is that I set out for this to be a completely T2 fit. Somewhere along the way I cheated by adding the RF Gyros, but to be honest, I think RF Gyros should be on everyone's short list if they're serious about missioning with a Minnie ship.  With the exception of one or two fits, I've been on a kick of trying to get the most performance for the buck out of my fits because I think BC is full of enough fantasy fits. 
  
  
  (Hope that wasn't an annoyingly long response for a simple question.)
  

  nah works for me, i just know of people that run the medium booster and it apparently works well. I don't run missions on my main so I can't really try it out.
• Galdinni

  March 19, 2010, 06:40:39 am

  
  

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  this is a nice setup. i'm gonna +1 this because i love the maelstrom, and this is a nice fit.
• Zee87

  March 22, 2010, 11:19:33 pm

  
  

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  SB, I didn't want to disrespect by submitting this loadout I came up with. If it weren't for your setup, anyway, I'd probably have never come up with this one. Anyway, I just wanted to share. It's really not much different, just tracking comp. instead of AB, and the rigs are different... And drones.
  
  [Maelstrom, L4]
  Tracking Enhancer II
  Tracking Enhancer II
  Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
  Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
  Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
  
  Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
  X-Large Shield Booster II
  Invulnerability Field II
  Invulnerability Field II
  Invulnerability Field II
  Tracking Computer II
  
  800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
  800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
  800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
  800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
  800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
  800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
  800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
  800mm Repeating Artillery II, Barrage L
  
  Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard I
  Large Core Defence Capacitor Safeguard I
  Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
  
  
  Ogre I x2
  Hammerhead II x3
  Hobgoblin II x4
  
  
  It's been treating me well, though I still fit the afterburner for certain missions.
  
  Also load the tracking comp with an optimal range script, for using standard ammo.
  
  Also, for drones:
  
  2x Ogre + 3x Hammerhead vs cruisers-battleships
  4x Hobgoblin + 1x Hammerhead vs frigates
  
  Also, RF Gyros may seem expensive, but they were only 12 mil + tags (each) from a Minmatar LP store.
• Seriously Bored

  March 26, 2010, 01:32:14 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Zee87 on March 22, 2010, 11:19:33 pm

  SB, I didn't want to disrespect by submitting this loadout I came up with. If it weren't for your setup, anyway, I'd probably have never come up with this one. Anyway, I just wanted to share. It's really not much different, just tracking comp. instead of AB, and the rigs are different... And drones.
  

  
  Haha, I feel honored man. I wouldn't have felt disrespected at all. Your changes (especially your drone method) seem very interesting to me, I need to take a peek at it. If I make changes, and I probably will, you'll definitely get full credit for it.
  
  As for the AB versus Tracking Computer...there are two things about the Maelstrom that bug me compared to a similar Vargur setup: the range, obviously, and the fact that it feels so slow and maneuverable.
  
  I chose moving yourself in range rather than hitting out a bit further, but let me take a peek at what it does for the ship. Switching between the two based on the mission is the best option, but leaving in the TC by default might be better.
  
  
  As a side note....holy crap, BC is back up! Halleluja
• Zee87

  March 26, 2010, 08:09:12 pm

  
  

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  Well, I've been flying the CNR for missions for a long time, and it goes the exact same speed as the Maelstrom. Considering that the tier-3 BS's from the other races are slow in comparison, the speed the Maelstrom has without a propulsion mod is pretty good.
  
  I never had an afterburner on the CNR, so I'm pretty used to the speed.
  
  I still do use an afterburner for some missions though.
  
  and yeah, I'm glad BC's back up.
• theolein

  March 27, 2010, 06:56:10 am

  
  

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  SB (saw you in Lustrevik last night, I think, in your God of Missions), I have a question for you: The one set of NPCs which really get my goat are the ones in the mission The Assault (Serpentis). It's very easy to get full room aggro in that mission and the NPCs do excellent range (Megathron NPC 65kms Kin damage) and the overall DPS is extremely high. Even with an alt repping me, I can't hold out for long enough in my T2 AC fit Maelstrom for the NPCs to get into range to start killing enough of them to bring down the DPS before I have to warp out. The only way, it seems, to do the mission is the slow and boring kite them at range with Arties, using a SeBo to counter the damping they do. Do you perhaps have a decent strategy for doing this mission that is soloable using ACs in the Mael (can't afford a Vargur yet)?
• vicror

  March 27, 2010, 07:15:16 am

  
  

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  I'm not familiar with serp assault.  but, having ran guristas and sanshas using blitz is very easy.  nm fit with tachs.  with mael you pretty much hit it.  artys and range would probably be best.
• Seriously Bored

  March 27, 2010, 04:14:00 pm

  
  

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  This loadout has been updated
  
  _______
  
  Soo, first thing's first: I switched the AB as standard to a Tracking Computer II with Range Script/Tracking Scrip. The main reason is that on most of Angel missions, the ships either start very close or end up very close by the time you're killing the majority of them. The TC added 5KM to falloff using T1 ammo, and 8KM to falloff when using Barrage...nothing to sneeze at. I would still recommend switching to the AB on missions where you need to haul your butt around much.
  
  I'm going to be leaving the rigs and drones as they are for the moment, though. I feel like the rigs do a very important job of helping you apply damage better, which makes you more isk/hour than tanking rigs would. The ship already has a beefy tank.
  
  I find that 5x Valks or Hammerheads do an excellent job of cleaning up frigs as is, due to an interesting effect where drones that are slightly slower than the target they are chasing do much more damage because they end up with less transversal. (Valks kill Spider Drones faster than Warriors do!)
  
  And now for some missions advice:
  
  

  Quote from: theolein on March 27, 2010, 06:56:10 am

  SB (saw you in Lustrevik last night, I think, in your God of Missions), I have a question for you: The one set of NPCs which really get my goat are the ones in the mission The Assault (Serpentis). It's very easy to get full room aggro in that mission and the NPCs do excellent range (Megathron NPC 65kms Kin damage) and the overall DPS is extremely high. Even with an alt repping me, I can't hold out for long enough in my T2 AC fit Maelstrom for the NPCs to get into range to start killing enough of them to bring down the DPS before I have to warp out. The only way, it seems, to do the mission is the slow and boring kite them at range with Arties, using a SeBo to counter the damping they do. Do you perhaps have a decent strategy for doing this mission that is soloable using ACs in the Mael (can't afford a Vargur yet)?
  

  
  I used to run the Assault pretty regularly because I loved the bounty payout, but I tend to pass it up because it ends up being pretty bad isk/hour for me these days. But I can absolutely tell you how I used to do it. :)
  
  The first room of this missions is indeed punishing. I personally believe full aggro in it is far worse than the Angel Extravaganza bonus room. Some basic pointers:
  
  * There is a cluster of BSs off to the upper left when you warp in. Shooting these causes a whole bunch of ships to spawn.
  
  * There are two clusters of ships right ahead when you warp in. One has a bunch of Sensor Damping ships which you should absolutely kill first...they don't really aggro anything else, and make it a huge PITA for the rest of the mission. The other cluster has a BS and some cruisers. You can kill the cruisers, but leave the BS alone: it also causes a big spawn of ships.
  
  So basically:
  
  1) Kill the Damping group of ships.
  2) Kill the cruisers ahead of you in the spawn cluster, but leave the BS alone.
  3) Kill the frigs/cruisers in the main group to the right, then kill the BSs in the group to the right.
  4) Kill the spawn BS that was ahead of you.
  5) Kill the group of ships that it spawns.
  6) Shoot the BS cluster to the top left once, then kill the ships it spawns.
  7) Then kill everything else.
  
  
  For reference, back when I had all the expensive modules for my Vargur, I would pull full aggro in the room and it would tax my tank to the limits. I'd be almost out of cap by the time I got DPS to a manageable level, and it was a rush, but the isk/hour was kinda crappy since you have to chase everything down.
  
  Since I did that before Dominion, the range on this Maelstrom should be the same as the Vargur I used before Dominion.
  
  Remember: Barrage is your friend. These ships are Kinetic weak and keep at range, and Barrage is Kinetic heavy and gives you great falloff. :)  Don't skimp on it.
• Zee87

  March 27, 2010, 06:55:32 pm

  
  

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  Glad that my suggestion helped.
  
  I think I'm gonna try the rigs like you have em. I've been building my own rigs anyway, so it won't really cost anything to change it up.
• theolein

  March 28, 2010, 03:47:49 am

  
  

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  SB, thanks a million for that advice. The Assault is one of the missions where I've actually lost ships in PvE, my first Maelstrom embarrassingly enough 3 minutes into the mission (with an even more embarrassing failfit passive tank). I was, as they say, like WTF? Then I went in with my (t)rusty Phoon and showed 'em who da boss. I've always used titanium sabot (kin), and lately RF TS ammo in the mission and it has always been very frustrating, due to the NPCs being relatively tough as NPCs go, and the long time/low isk per hour efficiency when kiting the NPCs. Using Barrage might make it worth my while, and managing the aggro better will probably help a lot as well, too.
  
  I have one question as to your rigging in your fit. Since you already have two TEs and one TC, do the Metastasis and Amit rigs make much of a difference? say perhaps 5% or so?
  
  Edit: I have another question: If one is basically just parking the Mael and tanking and shooting, with no AB (the way I usually do it, especially for Angels), would it not be useful to invest in 3 Sentries and 5 Lights in drones? The 3 Sentries would add even more awesome sauce to an already awesome setup and the 5 Lights should be more than enough to kill the pesky little buggers after all the big boys are dead, shouldn't they?
• Seriously Bored

  March 31, 2010, 12:33:41 pm

  
  

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  I hope the advice works for you Theolein! It is a beast of a mission. As for your questions...
  
  

  Quote from: theolein on March 28, 2010, 03:47:49 am

  I have one question as to your rigging in your fit. Since you already have two TEs and one TC, do the Metastasis and Amit rigs make much of a difference? say perhaps 5% or so?
  
  Edit: I have another question: If one is basically just parking the Mael and tanking and shooting, with no AB (the way I usually do it, especially for Angels), would it not be useful to invest in 3 Sentries and 5 Lights in drones? The 3 Sentries would add even more awesome sauce to an already awesome setup and the 5 Lights should be more than enough to kill the pesky little buggers after all the big boys are dead, shouldn't they?

  
  As for the rigs, yes, they make small but noticeable additions to your real DPS output. The only one I would strongly recommend not subbing out is the ambit, but beyond that, this fit is less dependent on its rigs than most other ones you find on BC. They really are a matter of pilot preference here, but I wanted to suggest the fitting that would lead to the most isk/hour, even if it's a small increase.
  
  I'm tempted to say almost the same thing for the drones, but I actually would recommend against using sentries on a relatively short range fit like this. You really need to move around to make the most of your damage with this setup, and having to park it or go back and retrieve sentries really isn't conducive to that.
  
  Heavy drones are a bit like missiles...you technically lose DPS while they're on their way to the target, but if you command them to attack the nearest large target once they're done with the first, instead of letting them do their own thing, you can really minimize the amount of DPS lost from travel time. Also, Berserkers are noticeably faster than Ogres. Thank god we fight Angels!
  
  Beyond that, I've found that Medium drones are virtually as effective against frigs as Light drones, and oddly better against enemy Spider Drones. But if you want to do 3x Heavies and 5x Lights, I'm sure that would work well too.
• Zee87

  April 02, 2010, 01:28:46 pm

  
  

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  Yep, the Mael is probably my favorite mission runner now (probably until I get a Golem and a Vargur, that is).
  
  I love how it will pop those annoying small-sig cruisers in 2 or 3 volleys. Instapops frigates from far away, too.
  
  The high tracking seems to make the guns effective outside of falloff range, as well.
• Richard Dastardly

  April 08, 2010, 05:42:58 pm

  
  

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  Hmm, I'll still take a prop mod over a TC ( I still take a prop mod in my Mach, and that's oodles faster than this ) and align the ship by hand, I think. Then again my Mael had a large SB and no cap booster, so moving around a lot was pretty essential. Only stationary brick ship I can really stand is a Domi.
  
  Still, did I +1 this yet? I should.
• Melenya

  April 13, 2010, 11:34:57 am

  
  

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  I would like to know that do you swap only one rat specific hardener or do you sometimes drop another inv for second hardener? Or is that pointless with resists you already have?
  
  Loving this setup +1
• Seriously Bored

  April 13, 2010, 01:28:40 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Melenya on April 13, 2010, 11:34:57 am

  I would like to know that do you swap only one rat specific hardener or do you sometimes drop another inv for second hardener? Or is that pointless with resists you already have?
  
  Loving this setup +1
  

  
  No problem Melenya. Here's what I'd use depending on the faction I'm fighting:
  
  Angels/Minmatar/Drones:  2x Invuln, 1x Explosive
  Serpentis/Gallente/Mordus/Caldari: 1x Invuln, 1x Kinetic, 1x Thermal
  Bloods/Amarr/Sanshas: 1x Invuln, 1x EM, 1x Thermal
  Guristas: 2x Invuln, 1x Kinetic
  
  Hope that helps!
  
• Seriously Bored

  April 15, 2010, 09:43:35 pm

  
  

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  This loadout, as they say, has been updated yet again.  I changed the rigs once last time, based on the rigs I have on my Vargur.
  
  Simply put, 3x RF Gyros + T2 Burst Aerator is better than 4x RF Gyros. While I already knew that, what I wasn't sure was if the triple T1 projectile rigs (aerator, ambit, metastasis) were worth trading for it. It turns out it way.  In the graph below, the red and green lines are this new setup using fusion and barrage respectively, while the blue lines are the setup with the old rigs:
  
  
  
  
  As you can see, for all meaningful mission ranges, the new setup is better. The Barrage damage doesn't get overtaken until it's already beyond optimal + falloff.  Making this switch also allowed me to toss two capacitor safeguard rigs on there, which made it so the XL Shield booster can run as long as you have charges, as opposed to the reduced sustained tank I had before.
  
  Overall, I'm pretty happy with the changes. T2 Aerators really aren't all that expensive, and I hope you guys feel the change was worth it too.
• Melenya

  April 16, 2010, 10:28:21 am

  
  

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  Thanks for help SB, that solved alot for me.
• cnotsch

  April 17, 2010, 04:42:44 am

  
  

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  WOW now using pretty much the same fit and doing awsome dmg! awsome fit! +1!!!
• jeremiah9560

  April 24, 2010, 12:57:19 pm

  
  

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  this fit is the greates fit ive ever used thank you so much +1!!
  
• Seriously Bored

  April 26, 2010, 06:40:27 am

  
  

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  Thanks kindly folks! I've pretty much put every module slot on the balance to figure out if it's the most efficient addition in isk/hour...but I'm still open to suggestions.
  
  If ya'll got ideas, feel free to share 'em.
• Richard Dastardly

  April 26, 2010, 07:49:07 pm

  
  

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  GJ, you managed to find a use for cap safeguards I can't argue with
• Alexg567

  May 10, 2010, 12:49:14 pm

  
  

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  This is an absolute monster of a fit! chews through missions like nothing else! +1
• Seriously Bored

  May 11, 2010, 07:29:33 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Alexg567 on May 10, 2010, 12:49:14 pm

  This is an absolute monster of a fit! chews through missions like nothing else! +1
  

  
  Thanks much! It was a long process of refinement...
• Accidental555

  May 12, 2010, 09:18:56 am

  
  

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  Love the fit, and am a bit fan of ACs.  Will be a nice step as I go from my Loki (another AC ship) to a Vargur.
• Seriously Bored

  May 12, 2010, 10:15:17 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Accidental555 on May 12, 2010, 09:18:56 am

  Love the fit, and am a bit fan of ACs.  Will be a nice step as I go from my Loki (another AC ship) to a Vargur.
  

  
  Glad you like it! Not to be an attention ho, but if you plan on using a Vargur, you might be interested in one of my two fits for it (they have a similar fitting philosophy and damage profile to this Maelstrom):
  
  A Better Realistic Vargur: T2 Tank
  (The fit I currently fly, and would strongly recommend.)
  
  Vargur: Minnie God of Missions
  (This is my old fit. It's much more popular, but I've had a change of heart on the necessity of deadspace modules. It can fit a TC and AB simultaneously though.)
  
• Toukon Hana

  May 18, 2010, 03:11:37 pm

  
  

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  Wow SB, what can I say? Both your ship build, and very helpful graphs, not to mention obvious dedication toward perfecting this very handsome ship speaks volumes about both your professionalism and your dedication as a player. A definite thumbs up from me!
• Balian Black

  May 29, 2010, 12:29:04 am

  
  

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  +1 from me
  
  I'm using something similar and for about Angel Extravaganza, done it without using single cap charge :]
  
  
• Therishia Amarthon

  June 12, 2010, 04:53:12 am

  
  

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  This probably have been asked.. but i'm about to buy the last to fit my Maelstrom.. i have some questions though:
  
  1. Can i safely jump into lvl 4 missions in this build? or doest it take some experience to fly it... (i've been flying lvl 3 missions for a long time)
  
  2. do you need the t2 rig + faction gear to do this? and can you do it with a t1 AC? or does the AC give higher bonus to range and damage then the t1 versions.
• guddah

  June 12, 2010, 07:41:09 am

  
  

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  The loadout that is pictured is date 28 January 2010, what is the final updated version...................
• Seriously Bored

  June 14, 2010, 06:04:39 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Therishia Amarthon on June 12, 2010, 04:53:12 am

  This probably have been asked.. but i'm about to buy the last to fit my Maelstrom.. i have some questions though:
  
  1. Can i safely jump into lvl 4 missions in this build? or doest it take some experience to fly it... (i've been flying lvl 3 missions for a long time)
  
  2. do you need the t2 rig + faction gear to do this? and can you do it with a t1 AC? or does the AC give higher bonus to range and damage then the t1 versions.
  

  
  Hey Therishia. In general, this setup would be safe to jump into L4s with. It has a great tank, spews out a bunch of damage, so odds are good you'll survive.  The first few L4s might get hairy if you aren't used to managing your capacitor, however, so I would fly it on an L3 first to get the hang of it.
  
  The RF Gyrostabilizers and T2 Aerator are not necessary, and the ship will fit with all T2 equipment. But I strongly suggest getting those items quickly, and they make a large improvement on your DPS (and hence, the amount of money you make).
  
  I do not recommend using this ship until you have T2 ACs. The range is very limited without the option of using Barrage ammo, and an artillery Maelstrom will out perform it 9 times out of 10 without T2 ACs. There are several other great artillery fits on Battleclinic though, so you shouldn't have a hard time finding one. (You can also just replace the ACs with 1200s in this setup, it fits perfectly fine.)
  
  
  

  Quote from: guddah on June 12, 2010, 07:41:09 am

  The loadout that is pictured is date 28 January 2010, what is the final updated version...................
  

  
  It's hard to improve on perfection, mang.
  
  This current fit is the final one. If I find a way to improve it without using deadspace equipment, I guarantee you there will be an update, however.
  
• Therishia Amarthon

  June 14, 2010, 06:27:27 am

  
  

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  Thanks for the answer, really good.. however answers tend to give birth to more questions... so i got only one... wich probably is a bit silly, since you wouldn't be doing this if it weren't so Does large barrages cost a ton?
• Therishia Amarthon

  June 14, 2010, 06:27:44 am

  
  

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  double post
• Seriously Bored

  June 14, 2010, 07:55:40 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Therishia Amarthon on June 14, 2010, 06:27:27 am

  Thanks for the answer, really good.. however answers tend to give birth to more questions... so i got only one... wich probably is a bit silly, since you wouldn't be doing this if it weren't so Does large barrages cost a ton?
  

  
  Hey, no problem! I try to always answer the legitimate questions.
  
  Barrage isn't cheap, but it more than makes up for its cost in improved mission times. On my Vargur I use RF ammo exclusively...which is more costly than Barrage. Once you keep track of the actual isk/hour you're making, it's easy to prove that the higher end ammo is always worth the cost.
• Therishia Amarthon

  June 14, 2010, 07:59:57 am

  
  

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  Well as long as its worth the cost its good. and it would take alot longer time for me to train for artillery then t2 large AC so i think im going to go for it... and try get the faction equipment as fast as possible
• Joe Starbreaker

  June 21, 2010, 09:36:09 am

  
  

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  I've been using this for a week or so and found it to be excellent. It's especially good against Serpentis and Angels and Mercs (any race that gets in close), but even on Gurista missions, I believe that the slow killing of rats that orbit at 60km is balanced out by quick destruction of the ones that come in closer. You get a "+" from me as soon as I figure out where to click it.
• vicror

  June 21, 2010, 04:37:00 pm

  
  

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  SB, can we get an updated dps/range graph to include the Mach?
• Othnark

  June 21, 2010, 05:07:15 pm

  
  

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  Without even running numbers I can tell you this setup has serious flaws:
  1: Shield Safeguards are GARBAGE, cap control circuits offer higher efficiency over time
  2: The Proj rig is useless as its penalized far too much and your essentially wasting a rig slot which could be used more efficiently.
  3: Cap boosters on NPCing ship is a fools errand.  Your better off adjusting your cap recharge via rigs/modules to keep up cap.
  4: This is no where near a Vargur, its not a baby varg, its not even close. Vargur puts up over 900dps with only guns, tanks more, and is faster/more agile/high slots to spare, etc etc.
  
  
• Seriously Bored

  June 22, 2010, 11:41:11 am

  
  

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  Oooh fun, a critic!
  
  

  Quote from: Othnark on June 21, 2010, 05:07:15 pm

  Without even running numbers I can tell you this setup has serious flaws:
  1: Shield Safeguards are GARBAGE, cap control circuits offer higher efficiency over time

  
  I do agree that CCCs are superior to cap safeguard rigs. But last I checked, with the remaining calibration, 2x cap safeguards were better than a single CCC, but I can double check for you if you like. But that's tied to point two...
  
  

  Quote

  2: The Proj rig is useless as its penalized far too much and your essentially wasting a rig slot which could be used more efficiently.

  
  I'm sorry, but if you had actually taken the time to run the numbers you'd realize you're wrong here. The Aerator II rig is not penalized at all. It is first in the stacking equation, and offers a huge performance increase.
  
  

  Quote

  3: Cap boosters on NPCing ship is a fools errand.  Your better off adjusting your cap recharge via rigs/modules to keep up cap.

  
  I disagree. It takes fewer module slots to get effective cap performance with a cap booster than with anything else. You can really replace the safeguards with anything you like (and you're inspiring me to research some other options for that 100 calibration, actually), and it would still work perfectly well.
  
  But for the sake of discussion, what would you suggest that wouldn't decrease damage or range? It's entirely possible I missed something.
  
  

  Quote

  4: This is no where near a Vargur, its not a baby varg, its not even close. Vargur puts up over 900dps with only guns, tanks more, and is faster/more agile/high slots to spare, etc etc.

  
  This setup has the exact same turret DPS as a similarly equipped Vargur. But otherwise I agree: the difference between a Mael and a Vargur is huge. This is still plenty effective until you reach the skill level necessary to pilot one, however.
  
  
  Also...
  
  

  Quote from: vicror on June 21, 2010, 04:37:00 pm

  SB, can we get an updated dps/range graph to include the Mach?
  

  
  Great suggestion! I'll try to add this tonight. I'll use one of the popular Mach mission fits for the comparison, instead of adding my own, though.
• soultwister

  June 22, 2010, 01:36:40 pm

  
  

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  I love your Maelstrom. An easily accesible, working Matari L4 runner shot down any daubts i had about the PvE aspects of my favourite race. Cheers!
• Seriously Bored

  June 24, 2010, 04:52:47 am

  
  

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  Quote from: vicror on June 21, 2010, 04:37:00 pm

  SB, can we get an updated dps/range graph to include the Mach?
  

  
  Here we go! Some things to note:  I used T1 Fusion for the first graph and Barrage for the second. While it looks like the Mach is the clear leader in both graphs, it's important to note that the Vargur makes additional isk/hour over the Mach if you loot and salvage as you go, even after the L4 loot nerf. (Working on the proof for this still, but the data I have so far shows the Varg slightly ahead.) The Vargur also gets 30% to 37.5% better tracking than the Machariel or the Maelstrom, which goes a long way for damage application.
  
  If after all my Vargur fanboying you'd still rather fly a Mach, check this setup by Sarah Norbulk out. I used it for the comparison.
  
  (I also used my Better Realistic Vargur to represent.)
  
  Red = Mael, Green = Vargur, Blue = Machariel.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• battlemech7

  June 27, 2010, 04:45:22 pm

  
  

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  Small question....My cpu is limiting this set up. I have my gunnery cpu at 5, but I cant mount this...
  
  What skill(s) should I increase to get this to work?
• Seriously Bored

  June 27, 2010, 05:25:37 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: battlemech7 on June 27, 2010, 04:45:22 pm

  Small question....My cpu is limiting this set up. I have my gunnery cpu at 5, but I cant mount this...
  
  What skill(s) should I increase to get this to work?
  

  
  If you are using T2 Gyrostabilizers instead of RF ones, you'll come in a bit over on CPU. The easiest solution is to replace the X-Large Shield Booster II with a X-Large C-5L Emergency Shield Overload in that case.
  
  That will put you from 850 tank VS Angels to 771, but frankly that should be enough tank for any mission anyway.
  
  Hope that helps!
  
  ED: I should say the best solution is to get them Republic Fleet Gyros...they're absolutely worth it.
• battlemech7

  June 28, 2010, 05:37:40 pm

  
  

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  And where would I obtain these Rf gyros, and how much do they cost?
  
  **sorry, still a novice**
• Seriously Bored

  June 28, 2010, 10:45:34 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: battlemech7 on June 28, 2010, 05:37:40 pm

  And where would I obtain these Rf gyros, and how much do they cost?
  
  **sorry, still a novice**
  

  
  No problem. You get them through contracts or the LP Store...they aren't available on the market. IIRC, they're about 60 million isk a pop. If you're short on cash, it's probably better to go with the C-5L Shield Booster  and T2 Gyros until you worked up the funds.
• Sahrokh

  June 28, 2010, 11:54:35 pm

  
  

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  Hi, Seriously Bored, Vaerah Vahroka here.
  Just want to point out after 10 billions made with this setup that this fitting rocks. I am actually using 2 x T1 aerators rigs (taken of an older version you published a while ago), no real need to spend on a T2 one since the shield never failed me.
  
  Some suggestions for the readers after long use:
  
  1) Get RF gyrostabs. Now. They make an huge difference.
  2) Get a low consumption AB, I went RF AB and it served well so far.
  3) The shield is quite important. I got a cheap-ish 500M one, no need for those 1.5B mega-mods. A Dread Guristas can work too (identical to CN but cheaper). In any case, a better shield directly maps to more millions per hour so don't be cheap here. With the current one I rarely need to use a cap charge.
  4) This setup requires balls. Don't try "sniping", don't try anything but go in and face melt or you can lose the ship. Killing speed is so amazing that you need to train targetting to at least 6 targets so you can keep locking stuff before it's dead. Also, as general rule (even if it seems counter-intuitive), unless you get a blob of 4+ BS, kill cruisers first, they get like 2 shotted and you want their DPS dead fast. Finally, get T2 drones. If you screw up, you REALLY want to please consider another option, thanks! fast with this setup.
• Seriously Bored

  June 29, 2010, 01:18:30 pm

  
  

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  All great points Vaerah, and I especially agree about the RF Gyros. They're a huge benefit that makes fitting things easier, killing things easier, and making money easier.
  
  I would still suggest going for the T2 Aerator rig though. I can run the numbers, but I'm pretty positive it beats 2x T1 Aerators in the DPS department on this setup.
  
  (The stacking penalty is so strange some times...)
• battlemech7

  June 30, 2010, 07:56:14 am

  
  

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  If its 60 million each ove got the cash for that...just cant seem to find anyone willing to ell em...I don't have LP's with the correct factions to buy em atm.
• Seriously Bored

  June 30, 2010, 09:40:13 am

  
  

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  Quote from: battlemech7 on June 30, 2010, 07:56:14 am

  If its 60 million each ove got the cash for that...just cant seem to find anyone willing to ell em...I don't have LP's with the correct factions to buy em atm.
  

  
  Not to keep responding to every single post in this thread, but...
  
  You should check the contracts market/menu for the RF Gyros. Set the distance setting to "All regions", and type "Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer" into the search box. There should be dozens, and you shouldn't have a problem sourcing them in any of the major trade hubs.
  
  Good luck!
• Ihmemies

  June 30, 2010, 01:18:13 pm

  
  

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  EFT shows that 1x T2 aerator is superior to any combination of T1 aerators/accelerators.
• guddah

  July 10, 2010, 09:44:55 pm

  
  

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  With all said and done, what is the final configuration looking like
• ck terson

  July 13, 2010, 12:50:30 am

  
  

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  I just want to re-iterate a point i know has been made earlier, but for noobs, this is a biggie.
  If you cant fit t2 autos on this, or tempest or whatever, dont even bother. Go prototype artilleries. Its possible to run ac's, yes, but without the range bonus and without the barrage, you will just end up warping out frequently, which is what you're trying to avoid in the first place isnt it?
  I tried it, with an outrageous dps tempest ac fit with falloff rigs ect. Also with the maelstrom. It's fun. But the tank doesnt hold, and to tell you the truth ive lost too many of them. (drinking excluded). Arties are fine until then, especially with all the gyros and tracking enhancers (you can use fusion/plasma/emp all the time [big point here!!])
  
  Someone just filled my buy order for the t2 rig, and im flying over to Lustrevik to try the arty version out. L Autocannon 5 finishes.... not soon enough. like 15 days, although i'll probably interrupt it like i usually do with long skill queues..
  this is a solid fit. substitute tech 1 meta (whatever) items where needed, and swap out a low for cpu or powergrid upgrade if your skills still suck. But a T2 shield booster (or bettter) is prob the most important item here for low skilled player.....
• Seriously Bored

  July 13, 2010, 05:34:07 am

  
  

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  Quote from: ck terson on July 13, 2010, 12:50:30 am

  I just want to re-iterate a point i know has been made earlier, but for noobs, this is a biggie. If you cant fit t2 autos on this, or tempest or whatever, dont even bother.

  
  I'd have to say I agree with this. Without the ability to use Barrage, this fit would be just too limited in range. I also definitely recommend using an artillery fit until you have T2 guns.
  
  
  

  Quote from: guddah on July 10, 2010, 09:44:55 pm

  With all said and done, what is the final configuration looking like
  

  
  Consider this the final configuration Guddah.  (It's been this way for months.) I might switch out some rig stuff in the future, but the T2 Aerator Rig would definitely stay put, and so would all the hi/mid/low slots. Unless I get some sort of fitting breakthrough, call it final.
  
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  July 22, 2010, 10:20:57 am

  
  

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  Tried it, fell in love and quickly updated to a mach. But this is a sweet ship and I want to say thank you seriously for all the hard work and the math really showing why it is like it is. Good job
• Rudlow

  July 24, 2010, 01:56:24 am

  
  

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  Hello there, Im a new player, gonna train my battleship skills in few days, and I saw your setup. Of course I'll have to train lots of skills, before I can equip all the written stuff, but first I'd like to ask is there a biggie between 800mm Repeating Artillery II and 800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I turrets? Because I cannot see the difference:) (except for trained skills bonuses).
  
  EDIT:// oh, its the ammo that makes the difference, right? Do u think its possible with my mentioned turrets to run a L4 mission? Or at least easily L3?
• vicror

  July 24, 2010, 02:01:00 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Rudlow on July 24, 2010, 01:56:24 am

  Hello there, Im a new player, gonna train my battleship skills in few days, and I saw your setup. Of course I'll have to train lots of skills, before I can equip all the written stuff, but first I'd like to ask is there a biggie between 800mm Repeating Artillery II and 800mm Heavy 'Scout' Repeating Artillery I turrets? Because I cannot see the difference:) (except for trained skills bonuses).
  

  any t2 weapon type will be better for couple reasons.
  you have to train the prereq. skills to lvl 5 and be more prolific with guns.
  also, you are able to use t2 long range ammos.
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  July 24, 2010, 01:27:24 pm

  
  

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  Rudlow: I wouldnt use it without t2 guns, the barrage reaaaaally makes this build usable or you have to move too much. So until you can fit t2 autocannons just use 1200mm arties.
• Seriously Bored

  July 25, 2010, 12:45:50 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Linda Lobsta Defenda on July 24, 2010, 01:27:24 pm

  Rudlow: I wouldnt use it without t2 guns, the barrage reaaaaally makes this build usable or you have to move too much. So until you can fit t2 autocannons just use 1200mm arties.
  

  
  I would agree with this Rudlow. You can use this setup without Barrage, but for now you would probably complete missions faster if you went with an artillery setup instead.
  
  That isn't too big a loss, because Artie Maelstroms are still fantastic ships. While you're training for the T2 autos though, you could be saving up for RF Gyrostabilizers or the T2 Aerator rig, so that once you slip into a proper AC Mael, you can use this killing machine at its best potential.
• battlemech7

  July 25, 2010, 04:28:03 pm

  
  

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  So...with everything.. what would be the best ammo, drones and targeting computer script to be used?
• Seriously Bored

  July 26, 2010, 05:47:01 am

  
  

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  Quote from: battlemech7 on July 25, 2010, 04:28:03 pm

  So...with everything.. what would be the best ammo, drones and targeting computer script to be used?
  

  
  Ammo-wise: you'll be using Barrage, Fusion, Phased Plasma, and EMP the most. Which of Fusion, PP, or EMP you'll use depends on the mission targets, but always bring Barrage with you.
  
  For drones, I tend to use Valkyries/Zerks for Angel missions and Hammerheads for everything else. Against Mordus Kinetic drones are actually great, but I rarely switch out for them.
  
  As for which targeting script to use, the answer is: all of them! Use a range script for targets farther out than 20KM and a tracking script for anything closer. Scripts are 0.1m3 and can be switched in a matter of seconds. No reason not to carry both.
• Rudlow

  July 29, 2010, 06:15:48 am

  
  

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  First, thank you very much for your answers. I still got some tho:) Lets say I use Tech1 1200mm Artillery turrets (scouts for more damage), and their accuracy falloff is 35km, what would u suggest me to use for closer ships or small ships? My drones are really weak so far, so should I add some smaller arties in few slots or should I go all the way down with 1200mm? Thank you.
• Firia

  July 29, 2010, 10:25:59 am

  
  

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  I'm pretty far off from being able to use this. In fact, I JUST learned the Battleship Skill, and can't even fit the large guns. I've been taking it out on test runs in level 3's with medium guns to see how it handles, and check on tank fittings. So I'm probably like, a month away from being able to fly this. But hey, something to shoot for! (Also, one of the better fits I've seen after sifting through so many intentionally fail fits.)
  
  I'm curious though, how necessary is that T2 rig? More experienced players than I have told me that T2 rigs are almost never worth their price tag. I figure I'd quiz the architect before assuming it's over the top and unnecessary. Otherwise I'm thinking I'll use a T1 rig for cost effectiveness.
• vicror

  July 29, 2010, 11:09:24 am

  
  

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  t2 rigs are worth it if you have the isk for them and fit them on expensive ships.
  this ships isn't very expensive.
  sb just put it on there cause she's an eft warrior carebear. 
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  July 30, 2010, 07:19:21 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Rudlow on July 29, 2010, 06:15:48 am

  First, thank you very much for your answers. I still got some tho:) Lets say I use Tech1 1200mm Artillery turrets (scouts for more damage), and their accuracy falloff is 35km, what would u suggest me to use for closer ships or small ships? My drones are really weak so far, so should I add some smaller arties in few slots or should I go all the way down with 1200mm? Thank you.
  

  
  Keep the 1200 and train up your drone skills. They are important to kill off the scrambler frigs anyway. AAAND always useful since almost all ships use them. And you dont need to go that crazy with drone training tbh for the difference to be enough for them to kill off the smaller stuff.
• Seriously Bored

  July 30, 2010, 10:04:55 am

  
  

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  Quote from: vicror on July 29, 2010, 11:09:24 am

  t2 rigs are worth it if you have the isk for them and fit them on expensive ships.
  this ships isn't very expensive.
  sb just put it on there cause she's an eft warrior carebear. 
  

  
  Haha! Maybe that isn't too far off the truth. The short answer to your question Fira is that the T2 rig isn't absolutely necessary, and using a T1 version won't be too bad.
  
  But here's the logic behind it's inclusion: It takes a long time to train up to a Vargur, and a still significant amount of time to crosstrain Gallente well enough where flying a Machariel would be worth your while. You should be using this ship and fit for a long time, and the T2 Aerator offers a big enough performance boost over the T1 version - or even a fourth RF Gyro - to justify its price.
  
  Once you're done with the ship, you can sell it with the T2 rig on it and I'm pretty positive someone would pay to take it off your hands, so it isn't an unrecoverable cost. Don't buy it until you're good and comfortable in the ship however, and until losing a ship in an L4 mission is a totally alien concept to you. Your other parts may drop, but that rig is gone for good if the ship goes explodey.
  
  (As a general rule, I would agree that T2 rigs aren't usually worth their price. But the T2 Aerator is an exception because of how the stacking penalty works, and because when missioning more damage = more money.)
  
  

  Quote from: Linda Lobsta Defenda on July 30, 2010, 07:19:21 am

  Keep the 1200 and train up your drone skills. They are important to kill off the scrambler frigs anyway. AAAND always useful since almost all ships use them. And you dont need to go that crazy with drone training tbh for the difference to be enough for them to kill off the smaller stuff.
  

  
  Linda's advice is the best here Rudlow. It's almost never a good idea to mix guns on the same ship (Phoon excluded), and your drones should be your first and best defense against smaller ships in missions. Get them drone skills up.
• Rudlow

  August 01, 2010, 07:22:52 am

  
  

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  Okey, working on your advices then:) One more question tho. What handwritings should I use? (I mean 6-10 slots). Thanks.
• vicror

  August 01, 2010, 09:12:27 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Rudlow on August 01, 2010, 07:22:52 am

  Okey, working on your advices then:) One more question tho. What handwritings should I use? (I mean 6-10 slots). Thanks.
  

  large proj. damg. ones would be good.  don't plug 5% ones in your clone unless you have +5 learning imps. also.
  maybe rof in slot 9 instead of damg.?
  http://home.wanadoo.nl/ntt/eve/library/implants.html
• Odyssey996

  August 03, 2010, 05:52:22 am

  
  

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  Hey SB!
  
  I do love this fit, and it is what I am training towards, because ultimately I want to fly a Vargur.
  
  So I have a few questions:
  
  1. T2 guns is a long way out, so do you recommend 1200mm or 1400mm best named?
  
  2. Most fits I see have 3 x CCC rigs. Is your selection geared more towards the auto setup, or will they perform as well with a 8 x 1200mm arty setup?
  
  Thanks for any input I can get
• Seriously Bored

  August 03, 2010, 06:37:50 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Odyssey996 on August 03, 2010, 05:52:22 am

  So I have a few questions:
  
  1. T2 guns is a long way out, so do you recommend 1200mm or 1400mm best named?
  
  2. Most fits I see have 3 x CCC rigs. Is your selection geared more towards the auto setup, or will they perform as well with a 8 x 1200mm arty setup?
  

  
  Glad you like the fit, Odyssey. Let's get to answering your questions:
  
  1) It's kind of a toss up between 1200 and 1400. The DPS and alpha is fantastic on 1400, but the fitting is a PITA and the slow firing time and awful tracking can mess you up on occasion. I would probably go with 1200s.
  
  2) The rigs will perform just as well with an Arty setup.   If you use 1200s, you should be able to plop them in place of the 800s with no concessions to fitting. Then you just replace the guns once your skills are up to par.
  
  I'll double check when I get home from work that everything fits all right, but I'm 95% sure it does. Best of luck!
  
  
• Firia

  August 04, 2010, 07:00:51 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Seriously Bored on July 30, 2010, 10:04:55 am

  Quote from: Firia

  I'm pretty far off from being able to use this. In fact, I JUST learned the Battleship Skill, and can't even fit the large guns.   I've been taking it out on test runs in level 3's with medium guns to see how it handles, and check on tank fittings. So I'm probably like, a month away from being able to fly this. But hey, something to shoot for! (Also, one of the better fits I've seen after sifting through so many intentionally fail fits.)
  
  I'm curious though, how necessary is that T2 rig? More experienced players than I have told me that T2 rigs are almost never worth their price tag. I figure I'd quiz the architect before assuming it's over the top and unnecessary. Otherwise I'm thinking I'll use a T1 rig for cost effectiveness.
  
  

  
  
  Haha! Maybe that isn't too far off the truth. The short answer to your question Fira is that the T2 rig isn't absolutely necessary, and using a T1 version won't be too bad.
  
  But here's the logic behind it's inclusion: It takes a long time to train up to a Vargur, and a still significant amount of time to crosstrain Gallente well enough where flying a Machariel would be worth your while. You should be using this ship and fit for a long time, and the T2 Aerator offers a big enough performance boost over the T1 version - or even a fourth RF Gyro - to justify its price.
  
  Once you're done with the ship, you can sell it with the T2 rig on it and I'm pretty positive someone would pay to take it off your hands, so it isn't an unrecoverable cost. Don't buy it until you're good and comfortable in the ship however, and until losing a ship in an L4 mission is a totally alien concept to you. Your other parts may drop, but that rig is gone for good if the ship goes explodey.
  
  (As a general rule, I would agree that T2 rigs aren't usually worth their price. But the T2 Aerator is an exception because of how the stacking penalty works, and because when missioning more damage = more money.)
  

  
  
  Hmmmm, that is a compelling argument. I've mapped out what I need to know to fly this beast, and it will take me about 81 DAYS to fly it as per this fit. *Headdesk* But I can see how this beastly monster can work really well in a mission.
  
  I'm curious if you have a pvp Mael up around here. To many lol-fits to sift through. Rather ask someone that seems to know their business.
• vicror

  August 04, 2010, 08:59:44 pm

  
  

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  think most use pest for pvp.  it has utility highs.
  
• Seriously Bored

  August 05, 2010, 10:51:34 am

  
  

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  Quote from: vicror on August 04, 2010, 08:59:44 pm

  think most use pest for pvp.  it has utility highs.

  
  My thoughts exactly. My personal opinion is that the Maelstrom is too fat and too cap dependent to do anything but hug gates and stations for PVP.
  
  The most interesting Tempest fits to me are the ones that treat it like an oversized BC. (Common statement on the EVE-O S&M forum is that the Tempest is the best Battlecruiser.  )
  
  Check out this excellent fit for an example.
  
  Aside from that, I really love the Phoon for the fifty things you can do with it if you have the skills properly trained.
• Query23

  August 06, 2010, 05:48:44 pm

  
  

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  I appreciate your fit but I do have to ask. Why T1 capacitor safeguards. The T2s are really cheap. 20-30 per depending on where you shop.
• vicror

  August 06, 2010, 05:51:53 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Query23 on August 06, 2010, 05:48:44 pm

  I appreciate your fit but I do have to ask. Why T1 capacitor safeguards. The T2s are really cheap. 20-30 per depending on where you shop.
  

  eve has something called calibration.  it limits the type of rigs you're allowed to fit on ships.
  think of it as going over on cpu or powergrid.  it just wont fit on there.
• audax

  August 18, 2010, 03:13:48 am

  
  

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  I just won a fight against a Drake and a Vengance in this PVE fit. Oh, and it kills NPCs pretty, too.
  Only difference to my fit: I use T1 ACs, a Microwarpdrive and CCC Rigs for the MWD.
  
  <3 AC Mael.
• Seriously Bored

  August 18, 2010, 10:47:37 am

  
  

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  Quote from: audax on August 18, 2010, 03:13:48 am

  I just won a fight against a Drake and a Vengance in this PVE fit. Oh, and it kills NPCs pretty, too.
  Only difference to my fit: I use T1 ACs, a Microwarpdrive and CCC Rigs for the MWD.
  
  <3 AC Mael.
  

  
  Heh, wow. Though I wouldn't recommend this as a PVP fit, that's impressive to me. How did you keep them around without a scram? Or was victory bloodying them to the point they ran off?
  
  Good to hear, in either case!
• Josshhh

  September 04, 2010, 03:54:31 am

  
  

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  Just askin im starting to get into minmatar bs and the maelstrom is what ive got atm and also a friend of mine kindly gave me a dread guristers XL shield booster.
  
  Now for the issues.
  
  i cant fit tech 2 guns
  im new to minmatar bs and they seam to be the hardest to fit.
  
  is this fit ok without tech 2 guns and not completly fantastic shield skills ?
• Seriously Bored

  September 06, 2010, 08:06:28 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Jossh XD on September 04, 2010, 03:54:31 am

  Just askin im starting to get into minmatar bs and the maelstrom is what ive got atm and also a friend of mine kindly gave me a dread guristers XL shield booster.
  
  Now for the issues.
  
  i cant fit tech 2 guns
  im new to minmatar bs and they seam to be the hardest to fit.
  
  is this fit ok without tech 2 guns and not completly fantastic shield skills ?
  

  
  The fit is definitely okay without completely fantastic shield skills (being able to fit T2 invulns and hardeners is a must though), but without having T2 ACs, you're probably better off using 1200mm or 1400mm artillery. Your range will just be too limited.
  
  The good news is that 1200mm artillery fits right into the rest of this loadout without issues. And IIRC, you can drop a TE for a DPS to fit 1400mm's.
• Josshhh

  September 09, 2010, 07:35:16 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Seriously Bored on September 06, 2010, 08:06:28 am

  Quote from: Jossh XD on September 04, 2010, 03:54:31 am

  Just askin im starting to get into minmatar bs and the maelstrom is what ive got atm and also a friend of mine kindly gave me a dread guristers XL shield booster.
  
  Now for the issues.
  
  i cant fit tech 2 guns
  im new to minmatar bs and they seam to be the hardest to fit.
  
  is this fit ok without tech 2 guns and not completly fantastic shield skills ?
  

  
  The fit is definitely okay without completely fantastic shield skills (being able to fit T2 invulns and hardeners is a must though), but without having T2 ACs, you're probably better off using 1200mm or 1400mm artillery. Your range will just be too limited.
  
  The good news is that 1200mm artillery fits right into the rest of this loadout without issues. And IIRC, you can drop a TE for a DPS to fit 1400mm's.
  

  Awesome Just got tech 2 resists today .. Cheers
• Seriously Bored

  September 15, 2010, 10:12:26 am

  
  

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  Good news everyone!
  
  CCP is toying with the idea of allowing MWDs in missions.
  
  I'll be watching this like a hawk, and if this comes to pass, I'll be updating my Mael and Vargur fits ASAP. I'll tinker with the fitting to have them ready to go in case it happens. Wewt!
• Therishia Amarthon

  September 16, 2010, 01:11:43 am

  
  

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  Well, as long as you can still use an AB with same effect no problem it would be an awesome edition to AC fits though... currently im using this fit with 1200mm Arties.. while training for the t2 AC's... and i had to ad an AB to keep stuff at range.
  
  But otherwise it has been a dreamfit, i didnt have any problems jumping from lvl 3 to 4 with this. So far i've found lvl 4 missions more relaxing then lvl 3 ^^
• DUKE BILKO

  October 17, 2010, 07:40:04 am

  
  

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  would having this ship plow missions be better than using an raven?
• DUKE BILKO

  October 17, 2010, 07:41:45 am

  
  

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  this even looks like it is better than my abaddon!
• Seriously Bored

  October 19, 2010, 08:49:45 am

  
  

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  Quote from: Duke Bilko on October 17, 2010, 07:40:04 am

  would having this ship plow missions be better than using an raven?
  

  
  As a general statement, I would say this is about equal with a Raven. But the caveat is that you need a good Arty fit as well to cover the missions that you simply need range for, while the Raven has a certain all-in-one easy-button quality to it.
  
  The AC Mael blows the Raven out of the water when it comes to Angel missions or other close-range slugfests, but there are plenty of examples where the Raven would do better as well. Knowing the limitations of your mission ship is important to keep the isk rolling in as fast as possible.
  
  

  Quote from: Duke Bilko on October 17, 2010, 07:41:45 am

  this even looks like it is better than my abaddon!
  

  
  I think your Abaddon would do better against traditional Amarr enemies, but yes, I think the Mael is way more versatile.
• h4ngedm4n

  October 27, 2010, 05:51:07 pm

  
  

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  While it won't give pretty graphs or dps numbers on eft, have you considered rolling with some painter drones? I use 3x heavy painters and 5x warrior II on my fleet tempest, and wonder if the mael would similarly benefit from the painter drones. basically they'd help you land more quality hits in the falloff range, and you can still switch to lights for orbiting frigs.
• Seriously Bored

  October 29, 2010, 06:49:52 am

  
  

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  Quote from: h4ngedm4n on October 27, 2010, 05:51:07 pm

  While it won't give pretty graphs or dps numbers on eft, have you considered rolling with some painter drones? I use 3x heavy painters and 5x warrior II on my fleet tempest, and wonder if the mael would similarly benefit from the painter drones. basically they'd help you land more quality hits in the falloff range, and you can still switch to lights for orbiting frigs.
  

  
  It's an interesting idea, and I'll have to try it, but I must confess I have a low opinion of painter drones. The stacking penalty means that 3x heavy painter drones are about as effective as a single skilled Target Painter on your ship. The downside being the target isn't painted nearly as quickly as activating a module, and the thing you need them for (small ships) would be dead before the painter drones arrive to increase their sig. Damage is always damage, however.
  
  Maybe I'm wrong about them, and I might give it a shot though.
• h4ngedm4n

  October 29, 2010, 03:39:44 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Seriously Bored on October 29, 2010, 06:49:52 am

  Quote from: h4ngedm4n on October 27, 2010, 05:51:07 pm

  While it won't give pretty graphs or dps numbers on eft, have you considered rolling with some painter drones? I use 3x heavy painters and 5x warrior II on my fleet tempest, and wonder if the mael would similarly benefit from the painter drones. basically they'd help you land more quality hits in the falloff range, and you can still switch to lights for orbiting frigs.
  

  
  It's an interesting idea, and I'll have to try it, but I must confess I have a low opinion of painter drones. The stacking penalty means that 3x heavy painter drones are about as effective as a single skilled Target Painter on your ship. The downside being the target isn't painted nearly as quickly as activating a module, and the thing you need them for (small ships) would be dead before the painter drones arrive to increase their sig. Damage is always damage, however.
  
  Maybe I'm wrong about them, and I might give it a shot though.
  

  
  3 painting drones equaling 1 module is about right, but we don't have a spare midslot for the module on either the mael or the shield tanked tempest. with the mael's higher drone bandwitdh, what about 2x heavy painter and 3x valk II? I have to admit my results with painter drones looking better than damage drones may be due to my low drone skills (only 900k), where the ewar drones are not affected as much.
  
  Regarding the cycle time, I am not sure how fast they are really cycling, but based on the animation effect from the drones to the target, it seems to cycle faster than the actual module. The heavy TP drones are almost as fast as valk IIs at getting to their target, and have base 10k optimal + 10k falloff, so they can apply their effect before needing to get into orbit like damage drones do.
  
  EDIT: also as per http://npc.elfarto.com/view.php?id=22843 even the angel battleships have a signature radius < large guns' 400m resolution. Because of this, target painting should help put more damage on battleships as well as smaller ships.
• hexaq

  October 31, 2010, 02:57:36 am

  
  

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  Greetings
  
  I'm EFT warrior-ing around with this setup, and apparently, dropping a invul II and putting in a shield boost amplifier II will give a slightly better tank
  
  Is this something worth pursuing ? I mean, the bonus tanking effect will be apparent only when boosting.
  It's a trade off between a little more resilience when not boosting vs a bigger boost amount when you ARE boosting.
• Seriously Bored

  November 01, 2010, 07:32:14 am

  
  

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  Quote from: hexaq on October 31, 2010, 02:57:36 am

  I'm EFT warrior-ing around with this setup, and apparently, dropping a invul II and putting in a shield boost amplifier II will give a slightly better tank
  
  Is this something worth pursuing ? I mean, the bonus tanking effect will be apparent only when boosting.
  It's a trade off between a little more resilience when not boosting vs a bigger boost amount when you ARE boosting.
  

  
  It's a fair comment, and one I considered on my Vargur fits before going with a mix of three Invuln/Hardeners. Pardon my for copying one of my responses from a different fit thread, but this was the logic:
  
  "Basically, EFT shows your cap lasting longer with a Shield Boost Amp setup because it assumes you're going to run it constantly.
  
  Even in its lower defense number, it doesn't perfectly model the benefit of cap + shield regen, because it uses the shorthand formula of 2.4*(max cap or shield)/recharge time. By having higher resists, you use your booster less frequently (but for longer stints of repping), because the incoming damage is reduced.
  
  Though this seems like six of one and half a dozen of another, by allowing a greater period of time in between boosting stints, this allows your natural shield regen to do more work than it normally does. That probably seems like an insignificant amount of extra tank, but combine that with the lower incoming damage and the fact that it takes longer to get your shields below the 30% line, and it works out to tangible results.
  
  It also allows your capacitor to regen longer as well. You can also more easily manage keeping your shields around the 30% mark, instead of dealing with wide swings of damage which lower resists give."
  
  
  Because of this effect, I've been dropping the cap injector for a second Tracking Computer/AB in missions that I know I can tank without using the injector (with my Vargur, I should say, but that should work for the Maelstrom as well). It's just one of those few quirks that EFT can't perfectly model that works well in game, and I've got a lot of testing under by belt to confirm it at this point.
  
  

  Quote from: h4ngedm4n on October 29, 2010, 03:39:44 pm

  3 painting drones equaling 1 module is about right, but we don't have a spare midslot for the module on either the mael or the shield tanked tempest. with the mael's higher drone bandwitdh, what about 2x heavy painter and 3x valk II? I have to admit my results with painter drones looking better than damage drones may be due to my low drone skills (only 900k), where the ewar drones are not affected as much.

  
  Well, you've convinced me to give it a shot! I'd say it's at least worth a try to test out, since I haven't given it a proper thought before. I do have to say though that I have near max drone skills for Medium and Heavies and not so great for e-war drones, which may explain our different experiences.
  
  (As for cycle time, what I meant was that a module's cycle  time is much shorter than the time it takes heavy TP drones to fly from target to target. I assume you'd get a lot of shots without the benefit of painting there, but I'm going to hold on to my reservations until I give it a shot.)
• batuhantasli

  December 13, 2010, 09:42:52 am

  
  

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   Hi, i've started to fly a maelstrom and run L4s today, and i've some questions. I hope you can help me.
  
   I don't have T2 gun skills, so i replaced T2 guns with scout versions. I've 567 dps with drones in EFT. I guess it's hard to run L4s without cap booster, isn't it? If we assume cap booster is a must have, which skills do you suggest me to spend my skill points which comes from learning skills (about 1m sp)? I thought Energy Systems Operation (level IV now) to V and Energy Management (level III now) to V, but it's unnecessary if i use cap booster.
  
   Secondly, is there any fitting for nullsec Angel Cartel ratting that you can suggest? Thank you so much.
• Seriously Bored

  December 17, 2010, 10:39:38 am

  
  

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  Quote from: batuhantasli on December 13, 2010, 09:42:52 am

  Hi, i've started to fly a maelstrom and run L4s today, and i've some questions. I hope you can help me.
  
   I don't have T2 gun skills, so i replaced T2 guns with scout versions. I've 567 dps with drones in EFT. I guess it's hard to run L4s without cap booster, isn't it? If we assume cap booster is a must have, which skills do you suggest me to spend my skill points which comes from learning skills (about 1m sp)? I thought Energy Systems Operation (level IV now) to V and Energy Management (level III now) to V, but it's unnecessary if i use cap booster.
  
   Secondly, is there any fitting for nullsec Angel Cartel ratting that you can suggest? Thank you so much.
  

  
  Hey Batuh, sorry for the delayed response.
  
  Your low DPS is likely due to a lack of support skills. I would get Rapid Firing and Surgical Strike up to IV as fast as the skill queue allows. Damage is going to be your best tank, and the cap booster will cover some of the training you need to do in shields and engineering for a while. (Yes, keep the cap booster on there, forget about cap stability.)
  
  I would suggest using 1200mm Artillery until you have the skills for T2 ACs, however. Without the extra range that Barrage provides, the AC Maelstrom is fairly limited in range.
  
  Lastly, I'm sorry to say I have almost zero experience in nullsec. People seem to prefer T3s and T2 cruiser/command or Battlecruisers for 0.0 ratting, from what I've read. (Battleships are slow, vulnerable to smaller ships, and get caught easily.) Other people may be able to give you better information.
  
  I hope this helps!
• hamartology

  January 09, 2011, 03:15:14 am

  
  

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  After doing level 4s every day in a maelstrom for a month it is easy to submit - this is a good loadout. However, swapping between 1200s and 800s depending on mission is probably a good idea - instead of the t2 rig and the second TE - use 4 faction gyros and mission specific guns.
  
  I also tend to use only a large shield booster and a an amp. instead of the cap-booster. When we know the missions very well, we know exactly how much tank is needed. For angel extravaganza bonus room, the cap-booster and xl-shield booster seems a good idea.
• Forrestal

  January 11, 2011, 04:41:53 am

  
  

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  working towards this fit- it looks like the pinnacle of Matar mission running that is t1, and it sure beats attempting to lv 4 in a phoon. +1
• Seriously Bored

  January 11, 2011, 02:15:29 pm

  
  

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  Thanks folks!
  
  

  Quote from: hamartology on January 09, 2011, 03:15:14 am

  I also tend to use only a large shield booster and a an amp. instead of the cap-booster. When we know the missions very well, we know exactly how much tank is needed. For angel extravaganza bonus room, the cap-booster and xl-shield booster seems a good idea.
  

  
  Great suggestions for efficient mission runners. I'd still recommend the 3x Gyro + T2 ROF setup for damage however...there are numerous ways to get the grid for 1400s if you need a swapout setup, and the value of the ROF rig can always be recouped on the market when you move on to shinier ships. Otherwise excellent notes for people who know all the proper limits of this ship!
• Van Dahll

  February 01, 2011, 03:48:23 pm

  
  

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  Great setup,agree with swapping between 800's and 1200's as i'm cross-training from flying a navy domi atm.Got totally fedup with hybrids and their lack of punch...so +1 from me,and strongly recommend this to any other gallente dis-illusionists out there!
  good luck,and have fun.
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  February 04, 2011, 02:07:43 pm

  
  

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  Seriously: you should probably add in the description: use 1200meta 4 if you cant use t2 AC. since it gets asked all the time
• Seriously Bored

  February 11, 2011, 12:24:17 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Linda Lobsta Defenda on February 04, 2011, 02:07:43 pm

  Seriously: you should probably add in the description: use 1200meta 4 if you cant use t2 AC. since it gets asked all the time :)
  

  
  Ask sir, and ye shall receive. I've pasted the alternate Artillery fit into the main description.
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  February 19, 2011, 05:41:28 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Seriously Bored on February 11, 2011, 12:24:17 pm

  Ask sir, and ye shall receive. I've pasted the alternate Artillery fit into the main description.
  

  
  Nice Btw after using my mach for a while i think ill train for your vargur and check it out. Should be fun. Btw its Ma'am but who cares
• Brumbull

  March 09, 2011, 08:55:01 am

  
  

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  Thank you for the fit!  Loving it! +1
• ezrafitch

  April 27, 2011, 07:08:45 am

  
  

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  Currently using the artillery alternate, works perfect for level 4 missions - have had no problems at all. (If your newer, don't try to do this build without proper drone skills or a fleet partner)
• Treefingers

  May 23, 2011, 09:43:46 am

  
  

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  The tank holds just fine on Angel Extravaganza and Vengeance. Also, with my fitting skills (decent, not perfect) it only takes one RF Gyro to avoid the co-pro. I do use all 3, but if anyone's still working up to affording them, you might not need the full set to start rocking the ACs.
• gopiggy

  May 28, 2011, 04:19:48 am

  
  

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  now thats a sexy gunboat +1
• tomh999

  June 09, 2011, 04:22:06 pm

  
  

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  Totally new, few questions:
  What does 'Arty' mean?
  Who/what is Dominion? keep seeing it pop and I dont have a clue what it is..
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  June 10, 2011, 03:05:36 am

  
  

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  Quote from: tomh999 on June 09, 2011, 04:22:06 pm

  Totally new, few questions:
  What does 'Arty' mean?
  Who/what is Dominion? keep seeing it pop and I dont have a clue what it is..
  

  
  arty = artillery. aka the long range projectile weapon
  
  Dominion = previous expansion to eve that boosted projectile weapons quite a bit hence a lot of fits will state post or pre dominion as that expansion made a big difference in how they work.
• tomh999

  June 11, 2011, 03:24:35 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Linda Lobsta Defenda on June 10, 2011, 03:05:36 am

  Quote from: tomh999 on June 09, 2011, 04:22:06 pm

  Totally new, few questions:
  What does 'Arty' mean?
  Who/what is Dominion? keep seeing it pop and I dont have a clue what it is..
  

  
  arty = artillery. aka the long range projectile weapon
  
  Dominion = previous expansion to eve that boosted projectile weapons quite a bit hence a lot of fits will state post or pre dominion as that expansion made a big difference in how they work.
  

  
  Thanks
  
  
• Acrimonus

  June 27, 2011, 03:05:05 pm

  
  

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  Pretty new to EVE, what would be the ammo that you would use regularly? I would assume EMP/Fusion/Phased and not Barrage, though I could be wrong.
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  June 27, 2011, 04:53:42 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Acrimonus on June 27, 2011, 03:05:05 pm

  Pretty new to EVE, what would be the ammo that you would use regularly? I would assume EMP/Fusion/Phased and not Barrage, though I could be wrong.
  

  
  All four of those. EMP/fusion/pp for close and when the rats are far out switch to barrage. What i used at least.
• Acrimonus

  June 27, 2011, 05:21:54 pm

  
  

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  Really? It doesn't seem like a big difference in range, the distance could be covered pretty quickly. Then again I do not see an AB or MWD on the fit so I guess you can't really dictate range and will need the longer range ammo when the rats don't want to come close.
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  June 27, 2011, 05:45:39 pm

  
  

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  It is a big difference remember it is all falloff so the dps difference at long range is much bigger then you might think, check the dps graph in eft and you will see. And yes no prop mod, so unlike say the mach you cant just zip up close and melt face
• Maverick2011

  June 29, 2011, 07:51:05 pm

  
  

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  I like this build a lot but i have 2 questions about it:
  
  1) Without an AB this ship is basically stopped. How does it sustain dmg if you pop withing 5-10km with 10 enemies shooting at you? Considering all level 5 shield skills.
  
  2) Autocannons are able to deal with glued enemies like frigates? Again i can't see this ship getting distance from anything so i gotta fight at point blank range in some missions. Sorry my lack of knowledge abut drones too idk if berserker and valkyrie can deal with frigates always used hobgoblins.
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  June 30, 2011, 06:33:18 am

  
  

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  frigates are easily taken care of with the warrior IIs. (or hobs if you are facing non angels etc..)
• vicror

  June 30, 2011, 06:25:57 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Maverick2011 on June 29, 2011, 07:51:05 pm

  I like this build a lot but i have 2 questions about it:
  
  1) Without an AB this ship is basically stopped. How does it sustain dmg if you pop withing 5-10km with 10 enemies shooting at you? Considering all level 5 shield skills.
  
  2) Autocannons are able to deal with glued enemies like frigates? Again i can't see this ship getting distance from anything so i gotta fight at point blank range in some missions. Sorry my lack of knowledge abut drones too idk if berserker and valkyrie can deal with frigates always used hobgoblins.
  

  the only time I would really use a prop mod on a bs is for movement between far off gates.  sure it's nice to nice on a mach to increase damg. fast and speed tank.  but, that's really the only bs it's good on.
  personally, knowing I can easily tank everything with my skills I'm able to just leave it on any ship I want and never have any problems.
• Unkle Tickles

  July 15, 2011, 08:19:56 am

  
  

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  So I've been using a Navy Domi for missioning and am going to switch to this as it just seems so much more efficient and just better than anything that I can dome up with on EFT.  My only question is how much ammo and how many cap boosters do you normally bring with you especially for some of the larger and tougher missions?
• Ki113rB33

  July 18, 2011, 06:53:46 pm

  
  

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  It has been a joy to fly this loadout!  +1
• Ki113rB33

  July 23, 2011, 02:48:25 am

  
  

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  Is there an Incursion variant?
• Unkle Tickles

  August 03, 2011, 07:22:59 am

  
  

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  I've been using this for about a month now and even though my minnie BS and large projectile skills are/were only at 3 it kicks the crap out of any and all missions.  To answer my own question above, at most, I bring 15 800 cap boosters in my cargo, as well as the five in the module, the rest is ammo/scripts/shield and tracking drugs.  with 3 tracking enhancers even the meta 4 AC's hit out far enough to easily kill the majority of bad guys with the help of your drones.  with arties make 2 groups of 4 of your guns as the alpha of just the 4 is enough to instapop every frig and desty and two shots the normal cruisers.  +1 (as if it needed any more validation)
• Gifys

  August 12, 2011, 04:18:51 am

  
  

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  This fit is really awesome, thank you very much!
  I'm running anomalies somwhere in wicked creek against angel, and i do around 20M each twenty minutes... with only one faction gyrostab (the two others are incoming)
  
  Nevertheless, even applying tracking script on my tracking comp, I have trouble killing small elite frigates (I use 5Warriors drones or 5Valkyries depending of the target) How could this problem solved ?
  
  Regards,
  Gif
  
  PS : another +1
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  August 12, 2011, 05:53:43 am

  
  

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  gifys: thats what the drones are for, BS sized guns wont be doing much to elite frigs unless you can shoot them as they are MWD towards you and still at range. once they start orbiting just let the drones chew em up.
• UkaIS

  October 14, 2011, 09:37:14 am

  
  

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  This is awesome! I've flown quite a few Mael-Fits and lost almost as many... But this looks like it could become a favorite :-)
  It's not too boring since you have to manage cap, it's not too hard since the tank is still awesome and it does a shitload of DPS compared to other standard Mael-Fits! +1 from me, I'll be flying this a while!
• starionazriel

  November 29, 2011, 06:55:57 pm

  
  

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  I'd have to say this is the friendliest loadout I've ever read through. Good setup, haven't flown one in awhile. I'll have to jump back in one again an see how much better the ship is. Great looking fit btw I'll try it out in a few. +1
• Ihmemies

  November 29, 2011, 07:49:43 pm

  
  

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  So with my terrible skills I compared 800mm ac and 1200mm arty fits posted here... I'm still 1½ months short of Large AC I so.
  
  EFT says that 0-33KM AC does noticeably more damage, after 33KM 1200mm arty starts to do more damage.
  If I switch to barrage then the turning point is 38KM... 5km difference for 1½ month wait? I need to try out if I can keep targets under 33KM and see how it goes
  
  Of course I may be doing something wrong, but man these arties are boring (altough ammo efficient).
• Araceli Gabriela

  December 08, 2011, 05:40:24 pm

  
  

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  Carebears.
• Unkle Tickles

  December 17, 2011, 01:30:51 pm

  
  

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  Anyone know how this would fare in an Angel Sanctum or or at least a Haven?
• Unkle Tickles

  December 27, 2011, 09:06:57 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Unkle Tickles on December 17, 2011, 05:30:51 pm

  Anyone know how this would fare in an Angel Sanctum or or at least a Haven?
  

  
  
  HAHA, the answer is not well.  I used a slightly different fit to solo a haven and got absolutely eaten up by the last spawn.  Oh well, lesson learned that when upping the ratting ante I need to have an idea of what I'm getting myself into before it's too late.
• Wrathscale

  February 02, 2012, 11:59:24 am

  
  

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  Love this fit, one observation regards the 3 Hardeners, my EveHQ shows that 2 CN Inv would give the same tank vs Angels and would free a mid for a RF AB - obviously unless your missioning for a corps that gives the CN Inv's for LP's your looking at a lot more expense but Id say it would be worthwhile.
• Wrathscale

  February 02, 2012, 12:00:38 pm

  
  

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  +1 btw, forgot to include with above comment - doh!
• Lady Naween (Lobsta Defenda)

  February 02, 2012, 12:54:33 pm

  
  

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  Quote from: Wrathscale on February 02, 2012, 11:59:24 am

  Love this fit, one observation regards the 3 Hardeners, my EveHQ shows that 2 CN Inv would give the same tank vs Angels and would free a mid for a RF AB - obviously unless your missioning for a corps that gives the CN Inv's for LP's your looking at a lot more expense but Id say it would be worthwhile.
  

  
  also upping the cost by roughly a bill, kinda ruining the whole concept of a cheap ship
• Chamburg

  June 25, 2012, 08:10:58 am

  
  

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  Concidering the T2 damage rigs only adds roughly another 40 dps I would (and am using atm) this setup with a T2 Ambit range to increase damage projection on far away spawns.