Comments

• Mugster

  September 11, 2009, 02:53:20 am

  
  

  Petty Officer 3rd. Class

  
  

  Reputation: 2

  

  
  

  

  neat
• 00sage00

  September 11, 2009, 08:12:40 pm

  
  

  Ensign

  
  

  Reputation: 16

  

  
  

  

  For a utility ship, this looks pretty good. +1
• gsputi

  September 11, 2009, 08:18:45 pm

  
  

  Lieutenant, Junior Grade

  
  

  Reputation: 18

  

  
  

  

  Put a plate on it.
• Quivering Palm

  September 12, 2009, 02:00:14 am

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

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  @ Mugster, Sage: Thank you folks for the great feedback!
  
  @ gsputi: lol@smilly Ishtar - and regarding the plates, for Wormhole PVE encounters you don't need more effective hitpoints, you need to be able to outheal the sleeper dps so we maximize our resistances. It's a practice that has served us well and we abide by it! Also, if you consider plates in wormhole space, you should also consider the added mass strain they put at the maximum mass of a wormhole - collapsing it earlier than anticipated!
• gsputi

  September 12, 2009, 10:55:44 am

  
  

  Lieutenant, Junior Grade

  
  

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  Quote from: Quivering Palm on September 12, 2009, 02:00:14 am

  @ Mugster, Sage: Thank you folks for the great feedback!
  
  @ gsputi: lol@smilly Ishtar - and regarding the plates, for Wormhole PVE encounters you don't need more effective hitpoints, you need to be able to outheal the sleeper dps so we maximize our resistances. It's a practice that has served us well and we abide by it! Also, if you consider plates in wormhole space, you should also consider the added mass strain they put at the maximum mass of a wormhole - collapsing it earlier than anticipated!
  

  Have you done class 5 or 6 before with this? The plate is for the same reason rr bs fit plates. Sleepers have a tendency to crush their primary target with so much dps you can't respond in time, thus the need for ehp. Even if this does have enough ehp as is, do you really want to risk this expensive a ship by not having enough buffer to survive more than a few seconds?
• saras fox

  September 12, 2009, 12:50:05 pm

  
  

  Member 3rd class

  
  

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  wow t3 that gets the point
  
• Crunchbite36

  September 12, 2009, 04:46:36 pm

  
  

  Rear Admiral

  
  

  Reputation: 495

  

  
  

  

  dominix..?
• 00sage00

  September 12, 2009, 07:43:43 pm

  
  

  Ensign

  
  

  Reputation: 16

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: crunchbite36 on September 12, 2009, 05:46:36 pm

  dominix..?
  

  A domi doesn't have any of the bonuses that make this a more effective "utility ship". Plus its tank is a lot weaker (lower resists than the proteus).
• Quivering Palm

  September 13, 2009, 02:09:26 pm

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

  Reputation: 0

  

  
  

  

  @gsputi : Again thank you for your comments. However, I do believe that high resistances are much better than pure EHP buffer tanks vs Sleepers.
  
  http://www.planetriskshow.com/thoughts-on-using-plates-or-not/
  
  And btw, we never fit plates on our BSs - even Armor Tanking Ravens and it works wonders!
  
  http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/24309-Raven-Armor-Tank-RR-Wormhole-Fleet-setup.html
   
  If you can come up with a fitting for this ship and the intended roles / bonuses that gives better survivability I'd love to hear about it! (no pun intended)
  
  @ crunchbite: yeah what sage said...
• gsputi

  September 13, 2009, 02:22:11 pm

  
  

  Lieutenant, Junior Grade

  
  

  Reputation: 18

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: Quivering Palm on September 13, 2009, 02:09:26 pm

  @gsputi : Again thank you for your comments. However, I do believe that high resistances are much better than pure EHP buffer tanks vs Sleepers.
  
  http://www.planetriskshow.com/thoughts-on-using-plates-or-not/

  Your numbers are wrong. You're counting resistances twice in that calculation. I've taken the liberty of fixing your table for you:
  

  	75% – 100K EHP	90% – 30K EHP
  Sleeper DPS	10,000	10,000
  Reaction Time	10 sec	3 sec
  # RRs to Compensate	29.296875	11.71875

  You can tank using pure resistances with a bs simply because they have very high base hp, even a raven. Doing it with no plates is still somewhat risky on harder sites, but still doable. However, attempting to do this in a t3 with half the ehp of a bs is a huge risk. There's a good chance it will die before the cycle time of a remote armor repper is even up.
• aMUSiC

  September 13, 2009, 05:15:31 pm

  
  

  Member 5th Class

  
  

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  @gsputi: The calculations are based on a 10.000 sleeper dps model on a ship with 0 resistances. On a 75% omni-resistance tank only 25% of the damage will register, whereas on a 90% omni-resistance tank the percentage of the total damage is down to 10%. Quivering's calculations of 2,5k and 1k hit points of damage coming through are correct.
  
  You are right though about the risk. If a team is not trained to swap targets and Remote Repair in a timely fashion, then any ship (not just the t3) can pop.
  
  Of course, there are more variables to the table, considering that the high-dps sleeper vessels are battleships and that the Proteus being of cruiser sized hull is both harder to hit by battleships due to smaller signature radius, as well as due to it being more agile and able to put some good transversal velocity up.
  
  We haven't tested this fitting yet in combat, but we do have a lot of experience with C5 sleeper encounters and with good teamwork all sites can be cleared without any plates on any ship.
  
  Finally, the t3 cruisers have proven their worth in tankability and dps in the 7th alliance tournament where in the match of the Laconian Syndicate versus the Important Internet Spaceship League ( http://at7.eve-ic.net/index.php?view=match&tab=report&id=69 ) a Tengu singlehandedly tanked and killed 4 battlecruisers (2 Brutix, 2 Harbinger)
• gsputi

  September 13, 2009, 05:24:52 pm

  
  

  Lieutenant, Junior Grade

  
  

  Reputation: 18

  

  
  

  

  Quote from: aMUSiC on September 13, 2009, 05:15:31 pm

  @gsputi: The calculations are based on a 10.000 sleeper dps model on a ship with 0 resistances. On a 75% omni-resistance tank only 25% of the damage will register, whereas on a 90% omni-resistance tank the percentage of the total damage is down to 10%. Quivering's calculations of 2,5k and 1k hit points of damage coming through are correct.

  Yes, his calculation of dps reduction was correct. His calculation of ehp is also correct. The problem is that if you apply the reduced damage to the ehp, you are counting the resistances twice, which is incorrect. The resistance has already been accounted for.
  You need to either apply the full dps to the ehp, or the reduced dps to the raw hp. I chose the former, but either is correct.
• aMUSiC

  September 13, 2009, 06:12:00 pm

  
  

  Member 5th Class

  
  

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  Hmmm yes I see your point.
  
  Even so though, I think that the whole confusion arises from the fact that if you get any sub-capital ship against a 10000 dps output it's not going to last long. I'll prolly have to correct my friend Quivering here on the initial assumption of the Sleeper damage output reaching up to 10k dps, although I'm sure he mentioned the number 10k at random just to make a point.
  
  I've gone against 2 and 3 and sometimes 4 sleeper BS's all firing upon my poor dominix and they can very well dish out volleys of 1500 and 2000 dmg on a 77% to 87% armor tank. Even 4 battleships firing at the same time, they can inflict 8k volley damage, which leaves a combined firepower of 4 battleships nowhere near 10k dps. It's also more apparent considering that the said domi has about 60k EHP, and can compensate for the damage with three RR's on it.
  
  I haven't timed the sleeper's large gun cycle, but it's quite big. There's plenty of time for the fleet to switch focus to the Proteus and with quite some leeway I'd say.
• gsputi

  September 13, 2009, 06:16:45 pm

  
  

  Lieutenant, Junior Grade

  
  

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  Quote from: aMUSiC on September 13, 2009, 06:12:00 pm

  Hmmm yes I see your point.
  
  Even so though, I think that the whole confusion arises from the fact that if you get any sub-capital ship against a 10000 dps output it's not going to last long. I'll prolly have to correct my friend Quivering here on the initial assumption of the Sleeper damage output reaching up to 10k dps, although I'm sure he mentioned the number 10k at random just to make a point.
  
  I've gone against 2 and 3 and sometimes 4 sleeper BS's all firing upon my poor dominix and they can very well dish out volleys of 1500 and 2000 dmg on a 77% to 87% armor tank. Even 4 battleships firing at the same time, they can inflict 8k volley damage, which leaves a combined firepower of 4 battleships nowhere near 10k dps. It's also more apparent considering that the said domi has about 60k EHP, and can compensate for the damage with three RR's on it.
  
  I haven't timed the sleeper's large gun cycle, but it's quite big. There's plenty of time for the fleet to switch focus to the Proteus and with quite some leeway I'd say.
  

  Probably true, although I wouldn't be surprised to see numbers that large in a class 6.
• aMUSiC

  September 13, 2009, 06:41:40 pm

  
  

  Member 5th Class

  
  

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  We haven't ventured in C6 yet so I really cannot say anything. I hear tales of horror though about fleets of 20 battleships and supporting carriers. It's not however that the sleepers dish out more damage individually, as you can catch their top-of-the-line advanced battleship in a class 5. They're just many more on the field =)
  
  If the stories are true, then no amount of buffer tank can save you, and the only solution is ECM =P
• Quivering Palm

  September 15, 2009, 06:46:14 am

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

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  http://www.planetriskshow.com/thoughts-on-using-plates-or-not/
  
  Think I got it this time :-)
  
  thank you all for your feedback! this was a great way for me to understand resistances and tankability!
  
  Now for this specific setup, given my updated calculations and an armor buffer of 4.125 HPs and about 90% omni-tank, we get about 4.125 secs to put a repairer on.. so I think I'll might change it a bit to add a plate - just in case! :-ppp
• gsputi

  September 15, 2009, 04:50:46 pm

  
  

  Lieutenant, Junior Grade

  
  

  Reputation: 18

  

  
  

  

  Glad I could help.
• Nictutu

  October 18, 2009, 05:21:02 pm

  
  

  Member 5th Class

  
  

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  This ship really delivers. Great DPS on cruisers and frigates, plus we never have to wait a single second for salvaging between sites anymore. The only issue would be the 5 max targets. Having to target rats, wrecks and allies alike makes it almost impossible for the pilot to salvage and contribute to the RR efficiently while also DPSing the close range smaller foes (drone link augmentor wont fit because we cant spare any highslots).
  
  Thats why I switched one EANMII for a Signal Amplifier II and it works like a charm. 7 max targets make sure that no time is wasted in any way. Only prob so far would be the relatively low EHP as those sleepers do severe alpha strikes when they spawn. Still I never saw my tank fall below 25% armor in any C5 encounter.
  
  Damage Control II is preferred over EANM II until we decide to invest in faction/deadspace eanms and hardeners.
  
  800mm Plates and/or Afterburner should only be used on the hardest of NPC encounters where 5 or more sleeper battleships spawn together and wrecking hits get scary. Still, nothing a few more EHP and speedtank cant handle. I suspect AB speedtank is enough to tank anything given the resistances, but I won't risk losing a proteus to sleeper rats. Long story short, I'm keeping the plates on until I'm 100% sure it can tank any sleeper alphastrike in C6 systems.
  
  I ve been fiddling with rigs too. This setup needs a Medium Anti-Thermic pump II to maintain a 88-89% omnitank in absence of the second EANM II assuming perfect armor skills.
  
  We'll get to updating this loadout as it evolves through play. Perhaps later on we'll differentiate between C5 and C6 utility proteus, and hopefully none of em will use a plate *fingers crossed*.
  
  Whats for sure is that with this ship you dont need marauders to salvage as you go, and if there are marauders in your fleet they can be utilised as DPS/RR monsters and not as salvage lackeys.
  
  The need for Signal Amplifier II could be overcome through proper use of the 'assist' drone feature. Having 7 targets is still pretty cool though.
• Kenz_Rider

  October 23, 2009, 08:04:54 am

  
  

  Member 5th Class

  
  

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  Buy a deadspace EANM and EM hardener.  The cost is really insignificant in comparison your cruiser.  From there you can get deadspace EXP hardeners if you want to spend some more.  But the EANM at ISK 140 mil and EM at less than ISJ 100 mil are no brainers.
• Quivering Palm

  October 27, 2009, 05:12:50 pm

  
  

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  Yep this ship delivers!
  
  Now that we have been fielding it in various Class 5 sites from typical PVE to the harder Mags and Radars, with Nictutu's changes this ship clears all salvage by the time we are done shooting the sleepers. This alone has payed back for the cost of the ship, given that we now can do 1-2 more sites before calling it for the day.
  
  I'll give it a couple more weeks of gameplay then I'll update the loadout with our latest fit.
  
  Given the advise on the Faction/Deadspace gear to add to this, we probably should and we will definately look into it if it yields better tank.
• Dethmourne Silvermane

  November 01, 2009, 06:15:14 pm

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

  Reputation: 7

  

  
  

  

  Could you go ahead and post (as a commment, if you'd like) the fit you're working with now?
• Quivering Palm

  November 02, 2009, 06:29:34 pm

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

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  Here are the changes in the working version:
  
  Rigs:
  2x Medium Egress Port Maximizer I
  1x Medium Remote Repair Augmentor I
  
  This rig setup is cheaper than T2 Rigs and with proper micro-management keeps the ship cap-stable while salvaging
  
  Highs:
  We thought of dropping the probe for an additional salvager/tractor but we ended up leaving the scaner even though we rarely use this ship as the main prober. When in combat we usualy drop a combat probe and keep it scanning every few secs to spot any ships far from our directional to pick up.
  
  Meds:
  Change the Analyser / Codebreaker modules as appropriate based on sites you will visit. If not going for any Mag/Radar sites then swap for a cap recharger and a target painter.
  
  Lows:
  -1 Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
  +1 Signal Amplifier II (to add more locked targets)
  
  Gives less resistances but greants +2 maxed locked targets - 5 turned out to be very few to efficiently salvage and do some DPS / Remote Repping.
  
  This ship rocks! When we kill the last remaining Sleeper on a site usually there are 1 or 2 wrecks left to salvage, so we gain alot of time while doing sites.
• Quivering Palm

  January 12, 2010, 08:14:59 pm

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

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  The original fitting has been updated.
  
  This is the latest version we use inside our Class 6 home.
  
  This ship is simply the best of the whole fleet!
• Sabin Weatherlight

  January 14, 2010, 06:37:23 am

  
  

  Petty Officer 3rd. Class

  
  

  Reputation: 2

  

  
  

  

  Aha! so you put a plate on it after all!
• Quivering Palm

  January 14, 2010, 06:39:39 pm

  
  

  Crewman

  
  

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  well we didn't use a plate in any of the Class 5 encounters, but the Class 6 is a totally different level of punishment. Even with 90% omni-tank a group of 6x Sleepless Guardians can hit for 3500 wrecking so there is no need to risk it.
  
  One 1600mm plate and you are set. But, for Class 5 encounters with a RR BS fleet we never felt the need to use one. It has been a great discussion in this thread however and thank everyone for your comments! :-)
• Tongxuemen

  January 22, 2010, 07:05:49 am

  
  

  Member 5th Class

  
  

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  You wouldn't possibly be able to provide the Class 5 setup with remote rep? Just a screenie of EFT, or even a list would be cool. I didn't see this fit till after the update, and I live in a class 5. So : /
• Quivering Palm

  January 22, 2010, 07:13:06 am

  
  

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  Here is the Class 5 version Tongxuemen - just note that it's designed to be a part of a RR BS fleet, running a Remote Energy Transfer cycle between them!
  
  Mids change as needed.
  
  [Proteus, Class 5 Utility Ship]
  Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
  Proteus Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
  Proteus Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
  Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
  Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
  
  2x Small Tractor Beam I
  2x Salvager II
  Large Remote Armor Repair System II
  Large Energy Transfer Array II
  Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher (Sisters Combat Scanner Probe)
  
  10MN MicroWarpdrive II
  Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
  Drone Navigation Computer I
  
  Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
  Damage Control II
  2x Armor Explosive Hardener II
  Armor EM Hardener II
  Signal Amplifier II
  
  Medium Remote Repair Augmentor I
  2x Medium Egress Port Maximizer I
  
  5x Hammerhead II
  10x Hobgoblin II
  5x Hornet EC-300
  4x Garde II
  
  
• Tyfuz

  April 20, 2010, 11:55:22 pm

  
  

  Crewman Novice

  
  

  Reputation: 3

  

  
  

  

  +1
• Iltarus Almondis

  August 14, 2010, 09:50:08 am

  
  

  Member

  
  

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  +1. Now just need about 6 months of training until I can fly it