Loadout: Vargur: The L4 Angel Killer
Vargur: The L4 Angel Killer
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Ship fitting - Built on July 18, 2009
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Positive ratings (35)
Negative ratings (8)
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To start with, i do not actually fly this ship. I run missions sometimes with a buddy of mine when we just want to shoot the shit and have a little fun. Well a couple months ago he got into the vargar and asked me if i could come up with a fit for him. This is the result of that. While i have not flown this ship, i have been witness to what it can do in a good number of missions.
The Ship: Tank: You'll notice that i make use of the Pith A-type medium shield booster, this is mainly personal preference (you can pulse a X-L if you want to). This ship has a 595 onmi tank which is a little on the overkill side but there isn't really any more gank that can be added so this ship gets a very nice tank. Rigs: There are 2 T2 extension rigs, these are actually fairly cheap and make a huge difference in you effective dps as you will be fighting into falloff most of the time. Lows: Got 4 Gyros. If you wanna add a 5th gyro feel free to go for it, you will not be cap stable that way but with all mods running you are stable for like 13 mins or something, so that is plenty of time. I made the setup stable cause my buddy has lots of wife/kid agro to contend with. Mids: There is my typical 4 mod shield tank but then there are 2 tracking comps with tracking scripts. Some folks may say that the second tracking comp is over kill but in response to that i have this: The vargar is made to fight angel ships which like to orbit you close. While one tracking comp will let you hit orbiting cruisers, 2 will let you hit them for almost full damage everytime, not to mention that the second one pretty much assures that you hit any and everything for full damage (ignoring the falloff reduction). Highs: Of course we have the T2 800mm AC's, this is because you want to have access to Barrage ammo, it is what really makes this ship work. You should be able to insta-pop frigs as far out as 70km (over 60km it sometimes takes 2 shots, but that is still crazy considering you are using AC's) The utility slots can really be any combination of the three mods i put there, that is just for your own play style, there is no right/wrong there. A few notes about the ship and how to fly it. -With this ship for the most part you are gonna want to use medium drones and just have them eat cruisers for you. I say this because you will be insta-popping most all frigs so you don't really need light drones, the few cases where a frig gets into orbiting range the medium drones can still kill it handily. By using the medium drones to pop cruisers you are making full use of their added dps. -This ship has a 3.15s Rof, with that in mind you want to take full advantage of insta-popping frigs. The main reason for this is that you want to fight in falloff as little as possible. Since you can 1 volley frigs up to 70km, you don't lose any dps do to falloff. This allows things that will take more time to kill to get into range while you are owning small things. -Feel free to agro extra groups before you finish off another group, this will give the next wave/group time to get into your optimal so when you are ready for them they are already there. -This ship owns against Angel, it even gives my Golem a run for its money in these type missions. I would not fly this ship though unless you are in mimnatar space as there are other BS's that are better anywhere but mimnatar space. So far the highest bounty my buddy has gotten using this setup came from a angel blockade and it was 17.4 mil (He cleared the entire mission in a single bounty). Thank you for reading this. Any questions or comments are welcome. Some questions may take a day to two to answer if it is something i do not know as i will have to ask my corpmate. Hope you enjoy. Greengimp |
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Comments
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July 18, 2009, 10:28:59 pm
Rear Admiral
Reputation: 495
nicely done -
July 19, 2009, 04:15:45 am
Lieutenant
Reputation: 56
thank you, thank you -
July 19, 2009, 08:24:49 am
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Reputation: 18
What about swapping a tracking computer for a gallente navy web? -
July 19, 2009, 01:13:16 pm
LieutenantReputation: 56
What about swapping a tracking computer for a gallente navy web?
We did try that, but found that for the most part there was no difference between 1 comp and 1 web, or just 2 comps. The reason for 2 comps is just you don't have to keep turning it on for each thing you want to kill and there is no range requirement. -
July 19, 2009, 02:39:16 pm
Lieutenant, Junior GradeReputation: 18
Yeah, I figured.What about swapping a tracking computer for a gallente navy web?
We did try that, but found that for the most part there was no difference between 1 comp and 1 web, or just 2 comps. The reason for 2 comps is just you don't have to keep turning it on for each thing you want to kill and there is no range requirement. -
July 20, 2009, 02:43:41 am
Member 5th Class
Reputation: 0
Ya know, greengimp, you're awesome. I love this fit, with the autocannon sniping...
Your Golem's better though, but definitely not by much. +1 from me. The thing that makes this fit really awesome is it's extreme range versatility. Wow.
I have to agree, i run in greens corp and have made use a several of his loadouts to great success. I've seen this one in action too and it is a beautiful thing to witness. -
July 20, 2009, 06:01:11 pm
LieutenantReputation: 56
I forgot to mention this, and I'm surprised no one else mentioned it, but when the need for an AB arises instead of dropping a tracking comp to add it drop a the shield boost amp. None of the missions with gate crawls need a large tank anyway so the amp is just overkill and makes for a good spot for the AB, not to mention when you are moving that just makes the 2nd gyro even better since you are affecting the transversals of the rats also. -
July 21, 2009, 01:00:15 pm
Captain
Reputation: 71
a great thing about this setup is that this concept of range versatility with autocannons could almost be applied to any Minmatar ship practically. It's amazing. -
July 24, 2009, 12:23:27 pm
Petty Officer 2nd. Class
Reputation: 12
I saw your comments on my other Vargur setups, but I missed your own setup. The comments you've been making about tracking make sense now that I've read your full description.
How often would you say cruisers get into orbit range when you're missioning? When I fly the Vargur, I always pop them on approach after I kill the frigs, and they almost never get to orbit...but I can see how tracking mods would be a godsend if you're using the 800mm ACs. (I prefer 650mm myself, with the better built-in tracking, easier fitting, and only marginally worse DPS).
In any case, this is very different from how I fly, but still great. +1 from me. -
July 24, 2009, 08:23:01 pm
LieutenantReputation: 56
How often would you say cruisers get into orbit range when you're missioning? When I fly the Vargur, I always pop them on approach after I kill the frigs, and they almost never get to orbit...but I can see how tracking mods would be a godsend if you're using the 800mm ACs. (I prefer 650mm myself, with the better built-in tracking, easier fitting, and only marginally worse DPS).
Generally we have found that you get better mission times if you don't kill the cruisers as they come towards you. You should kill all the frigs, but leave the cruisers alone. The reason for this is that your drones are useless if you kill all the targets they will really help with, and using the mediums to kill the cruisers has turned out to give the best results, and utilize the your drones to their fullest.
By going in the order of aproaching frigs -> BS -> BC -> cruiser you let your drones do their thing to the best of their ability the entire mission. Having the 2 tracking comps, even with the 800's means that even when they are in the 5km orbits that they will sometimes do you should be hitting them for your full damage amount so waiting until they are orbiting you does not lower your kill speed on them. -
August 05, 2009, 06:52:42 pm
Lieutenant, Junior GradeReputation: 18
I just noticed that in eft the vargur doesn't appear to get minmatar t2 resists for its shields. Can anyone confirm?
(stealth bump) -
August 05, 2009, 06:57:47 pm
Rear AdmiralReputation: 495
I just noticed that in eft the vargur doesn't appear to get minmatar t2 resists for its shields. Can anyone confirm?
it does theyre just less than HAC/CS.
(stealth bump) -
August 06, 2009, 11:56:50 am
LieutenantReputation: 56
(stealth bump)
I appreciate that, the vargar really doesn't get much love. It is kinda the ugly stepchild of the marauders. -
August 13, 2009, 12:53:04 pm
Lieutenant, Junior GradeReputation: 16
Somehow I missed it when this was posted, pure win. -
August 13, 2009, 07:29:11 pm
Member 1st Class
Reputation: 0
I generally like this set-up but have a few comments / discussion points:
His: I rarely find the need to target drones on anything out side 54km (iirc) so I use another salvager here. If a group is outside 54km then a quick shot from the ACs soon gets them coming in.
Los: PDS rather than DCU??
Mids: Very nice but sooooo expensive. If you have the cash to splash then great. I have just gone ultraextravagant on a Pith c-type med SB. Anything more is out of my league. For those looking at putting a Vargur together, if there is 1 module that you should spend extra on it is the shield booster. CN invuln make a big difference but just cost too much for me. with invuln IIs I have a 589 perma tank against angels - enough for anything(I hope!). Also I have to have an AB otherwise I go mad from boredom - never found the need for TE but prepared to be convinced.
For those that want EFT numbers (all lvl 5) my setup (nothing >100mil except shield booster (330mil)) I do 790 turret dps plus about another 140dps from med drones. I get 735 turret dps at 25k and 540 turret dps at 50k. All figures are no implants, no overloading etc. Not bad for ACs
Had to put those numbers in as some idiot on Scrapheap said that a Vargur can only do 410dps!! -
August 13, 2009, 07:53:09 pm
LieutenantReputation: 56
His: I rarely find the need to target drones on anything out side 54km (iirc) so I use another salvager here. If a group is outside 54km then a quick shot from the ACs soon gets them coming in.
In my op i mention how you can use any combination of mods you want to in the 3 utility slots as they are completely up to player style.Los: PDS rather than DCU??
The big reason is that the PDS makes the fit stable. You really don't need to be stable but when using the medium booster i prefer it since you arn't getting a ultra-huge boost from your booster but rather a decent constant boost. Also i hate seeing DC's on shield tankers in pve, the gain is very minimal.Mids: Very nice but sooooo expensive. If you have the cash to splash then great. I have just gone ultraextravagant on a Pith c-type med SB. Anything more is out of my league. For those looking at putting a Vargur together, if there is 1 module that you should spend extra on it is the shield booster. CN invuln make a big difference but just cost too much for me. with invuln IIs I have a 589 perma tank against angels - enough for anything(I hope!). Also I have to have an AB otherwise I go mad from boredom
Yes the mids are very expensive and going with just T2 invuln's and the C-type medium booster should give you more than enough tank. Recently though the A-type booster has dropped from it's previous 1.8 bil down to around 1.1 and it will prolly drop even more putting it in more folks price range.
The CN invuln's really do make a big differance though and by using them you give yourself the ability to be able to stick a AB in place of the shield boost amp for the missions where the AB is usful so that isn't to big an issue.For those that want EFT numbers (all lvl 5) my setup
As long as you have 4 faction gyros and T2 guns you should have the exact same dps as this ship as there would be no difference.never found the need for TE but prepared to be convinced.
The NEED for them doesn't really exist. I think that having 1 is a must as it really does help a lot once things start getting inside 40km. The second one is really there because you don't need any more tank or other mods in the mids and it gives you the ability to hit cruisers orbiting at 5km for full damage. -
August 14, 2009, 12:47:00 am
Member 5th ClassReputation: 0
sorry but i liked it until i tried it. tbh, the 2x extra tracking is overkill on a ship w/bonus. And without AB any time you make up with extra tracking damage you lose slowboating between gates. I think ned had it right. switch 1xTC for AB and i'd reconsider.
also look at damage curves. your never gonna hit for full damage on cruisers at 5km, no matter how many TCs you got on it. -
August 14, 2009, 01:16:30 am
LieutenantReputation: 56
sorry but i liked it until i tried it. tbh, the 2x extra tracking is overkill on a ship w/bonus. And without AB any time you make up with extra tracking damage you lose slowboating between gates. I think ned had it right. switch 1xTC for AB and i'd reconsider.
I guess I will just keep repeating myself but for any mission that requires an AB, and yes there are a good number of them, you should replace the shield boost amp with the AB. Even though you are losing a little tank it does not matter because the missions that require the AB are the missions that are a lot easier to tank. Also once you are using the AB the second TC helps even more because your extra speed is adding to the rats transversal.
This makes the AB point moot since anytime it is needed you can just throw it on there without having to sacrifice any of your gank mods.also look at damage curves. your never gonna hit for full damage on cruisers at 5km, no matter how many TCs you got on it.
I really have no idea what you are trying to say with this. The damage curve only applies when you are start fighting outside your optimal but inside your falloff. If something is at 5km, then it is inside your optimal so as long as you can track it you will hit for full damage. Now when i say full damage i mean you are only losing damage to resists but you are not losing any due to failure at tracking. Also cruisers in pve don't move fast enough to be to fast to track so yes 2 TC's will let you track them even at 5km just fine. -
August 14, 2009, 01:50:35 am
Member 5th ClassReputation: 0
I really have no idea what you are trying to say with this. The damage curve only applies when you are start fighting outside your optimal but inside your falloff. If something is at 5km, then it is inside your optimal so as long as you can track it you will hit for full damage. Now when i say full damage i mean you are only losing damage to resists but you are not losing any due to failure at tracking. Also cruisers in pve don't move fast enough to be to fast to track so yes 2 TC's will let you track them even at 5km just fine.
you for sure are losing it to tracking. you should be shooting cruisers at 10-20km not 5km where they are under your guns. Since i guess what i said wasnt clear, let me show you what i mean.
Your ship in red. not much of a difference right? and that cruiser is going 120ish, which is what angel cruisers transversal usually is at. you do better damage shooting them further out.
the other thing you're missing is that an AB isnt just useful for gates. It helps you get into range faster, which means you kill things faster. when shooting BSs like seraphim this is important. Sorry. AC mission ship needs an AB put on it standard, imo.
-
August 14, 2009, 02:09:30 am
LieutenantReputation: 56
while the graph is nice and i do agree with you that it is the way it is supposed to work, in game it just doesn't, through in game testing we have found that there isn't really any difference in damage between 5 and 15km to cruisers. Yes there is a variance but it is so small that it is negligible. Also we have seen fairly large difference between the avg. hits from 1-2 TC's and this is on a toon with perfect AC skills (including all the support skills). This is one of those places that EFT and in game are in disagreement on.
As to using the AB to get into range. If that is your playstyle then just do without the shield amp for everything, you will still have more than enough tank to do that. From using the ship we have found that if you follow the instructions i put in the OP about how THIS ship (meaning without the AB) should be flown i have negated the real need for AB through targeting tactics by killing Frigs first, by the time they are dead for 90% of the missions all other targets will be well into your range on their own.
The Seraphim is the only angel ship (maybe the cherib too) that really flys farther out than I'm am comfortable with but since this ship only pops up in 3 maybe 4 missions i don't see the need to perma-equip the AB.
In the end though, if you want the AB just replace the shield boost amp. You will lose a little tank, but in all honestly this ship shouldn't need more than a 300 dps tank anyway. (that is basically what my CNR runs and it does less dps)
I'm not really sure that a setup deserves a -1 just because you don't want to fly it the way it was designed to be flown. Yes if the ship + the tactics sucked then i can see it, but the target selection with this ship fills in the whole the AB would pose. -
August 14, 2009, 06:42:52 am
Member 5th ClassReputation: 0
hmm. I guess youve thought it through enough. so youre saying the difference is in hit quality. i'll have to give it another try i guess, and pay close attetion to that. -
August 15, 2009, 06:16:39 am
Member 1st ClassReputation: 0
QuoteThe big reason is that the PDS makes the fit stable. You really don't need to be stable but when using the medium booster i prefer it since you arn't getting a ultra-huge boost from your booster but rather a decent constant boost. Also i hate seeing DC's on shield tankers in pve, the gain is very minimal.
Sorry, I haven't put your fit into EFT but my pith c-type fit is cap stable if I am not running tractor/salvagers, which if things are that busy I won't be! The gain in tank with a DCU is a 38% increase in EHPs and a 12.7% increase in tank - I wouldn't call that minimal.
On the AB front I guess what it comes down to is that I am quite lazy - I don't want to keep changing fits, I want one that I can just undock and start shooting! -
August 15, 2009, 08:17:09 am
LieutenantReputation: 56
Sorry, I haven't put your fit into EFT but my pith c-type fit is cap stable if I am not running tractor/salvagers, which if things are that busy I won't be! The gain in tank with a DCU is a 38% increase in EHPs and a 12.7% increase in tank - I wouldn't call that minimal.
On the AB front I guess what it comes down to is that I am quite lazy - I don't want to keep changing fits, I want one that I can just undock and start shooting!
The thing about tank is that in Pve EHP means nothing. The DC could increase the EHP by 1458% and it would still mean nothing as you are only worried about what you can tank.
Yes the DC will increase your tank a little but the difference is that with the DC you get a 544 sustain tank (this is the number that matters) and with the PDS you get a 695 sustained. So the PDS gives you a better sustained tank and lets you perma-run run everything. this is why the DC is pretty useless.
As for the AB and being Lazy. With the new way that you can just save your fit and then have the fitting screen auto-fit your ship with a saved fitting it takes all of 2 seconds to switch fits. If that is too much effort for you to make an extra 5-10 mil/hr isk then fine but really? I now use a total of 13 different fits across 4 different ships when i mission to make things go as smooth as possible and maximize my isk/hour, i've been avg. 59 mil/hr the last month, so yes changing fits with the 2 seconds it takes is more than worth it. -
August 15, 2009, 04:28:18 pm
Member 1st ClassReputation: 0
OK - you made me put it in EFT. With all lvl 5 I show 595 sustainable with the pds. With a dcu II and not using the salvager/tractor then you get a 646 sustainable, or 671 for 38 mins (plenty). Even if you constantly use the salvager/tractor when under this onslaught you get 671 for 14.5 mins.
I have flown missions without AB and some are ok but an AB gives you so much - decrease range (more dps), keep range/control transversal (more dps), move between gates (time). I know you believe it is quicker without one but I really believe it is quicker with one so the best we can do is agree to disagree! -
September 22, 2009, 04:00:15 am
Member 5th ClassReputation: 0
I think deciding between a DCU and the PDU in this case is pointless. You should really be deciding if the 4th gyro is paying for itself or not. Which IMHO it doesn't. I haven't checked eft, but my gut feeling is you should use both and skip the 4th gyro. My shield tanking skills are not all 5s but my gunnery is, so I would tend to add more in the way of tank, and sacrifice some dps addons.
I am also personally opposed to putting any module on a ship that costs more than the ship. I would like to see this ship loadout modified to use as many t2 bits as possible and see if it can tank some of the harder L4s solo. Missions are all about the tank and being cap stable. Which is why I currently don't use minmatar ships at all, even though my skills are better with them. I use the abbadon, which gives better tank and DPS than anything in the normal stable of matar ships, even with BS4 rather than BS5 (I don't have Caldari or Galente Skills, so it is either Amarr or Matar for me).
I am trained for the vargur, but have been hesitant to spring for one. I do like where this loadout is heading though, and it makes me think I might buy one and see. -
September 22, 2009, 07:52:49 am
LieutenantReputation: 56
I think deciding between a DCU and the PDU in this case is pointless. You should really be deciding if the 4th gyro is paying for itself or not. Which IMHO it doesn't. I haven't checked eft, but my gut feeling is you should use both and skip the 4th gyro. My shield tanking skills are not all 5s but my gunnery is, so I would tend to add more in the way of tank, and sacrifice some dps addons.
I am also personally opposed to putting any module on a ship that costs more than the ship. I would like to see this ship loadout modified to use as many t2 bits as possible and see if it can tank some of the harder L4s solo. Missions are all about the tank and being cap stable. Which is why I currently don't use minmatar ships at all, even though my skills are better with them. I use the abbadon, which gives better tank and DPS than anything in the normal stable of matar ships, even with BS4 rather than BS5 (I don't have Caldari or Galente Skills, so it is either Amarr or Matar for me).
I am trained for the vargur, but have been hesitant to spring for one. I do like where this loadout is heading though, and it makes me think I might buy one and see.
The reason that the DC and PDU is usless in comparison to the 4th gyro is that you don't need more tank. Running out of mim space there is no mission that this boat can't tank, so why add more tank to it. Also that 4th gyro may not add a lot but it is still adds 49 dps or 6.6% to your turret damage which is nothing to snear at.
As for the cost of your mission ship. You should really get over that. You should never loose your mission as L4's are just too easy for that to happen. It isn't like you have lost any of the money you spend on your mission ship and if you need it you can just sell it off. Also suicide gankers are really a thing of the past as it is insanely hard to do it now with the changes they made a few months ago, and as long as you not in a heavily traveled system they won't even spot you anyway. -
September 22, 2009, 08:40:28 am
Lieutenant, Junior GradeReputation: 18
Basically the only way to lose your mission ship in highsec is if you shoot at a ninja. And then you deserve to lose it for being that incredibly stupid. -
September 22, 2009, 09:39:37 pm
Petty Officer 2nd. ClassReputation: 12
I think deciding between a DCU and the PDU in this case is pointless. You should really be deciding if the 4th gyro is paying for itself or not. Which IMHO it doesn't. I haven't checked eft, but my gut feeling is you should use both and skip the 4th gyro. My shield tanking skills are not all 5s but my gunnery is, so I would tend to add more in the way of tank, and sacrifice some dps addons.
When you first get into L4 missions, it can be tempting to overtank your ship. But the more experience you get, the more you realize the only thing that matters is completion time. And for that, you need as much DPS as possible.QuoteI am also personally opposed to putting any module on a ship that costs more than the ship. I would like to see this ship loadout modified to use as many t2 bits as possible and see if it can tank some of the harder L4s solo.
A bit of a shameless self plug, but if you're interested in T2 fits, they're out there. This fit, however, is great as it currently is.QuoteMissions are all about the tank and being cap stable.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more here. Missions are all about the damage and completing them as fast as possible. Granted, Minmatar are still bad in these areas. But if you're cherry picking Angel missions (which this setup is geared for), you should still be making more isk than you possibly could in your Abaddon. -
January 06, 2010, 08:56:41 am
Member
Reputation: 2
Im seriously considering fits atm as I really need a practical fit with as little cost as possible. Little cost, not because I am cheap but I just dont like giving away iskies.
I really like this fit and am considering putting it together. I think the thing that attracts me most is your practical testing. Anyone can EFT a fit, I can, but how it works on the field is what is most important. Good job there!
I am also looking for a good fit for PvP purposes. Yeah, I know it is an expensive PvP ship but I'll have massive fleet support along with it. If anyone has a good fit suitable for that purpose, please post it
+1 for me. Thanks for all the hard work that went into this fit. -
March 03, 2010, 02:52:49 pm
Crewman Recruit
Reputation: 0
Im not sure why you have the drone link but anyway,
Changes i'd make would be rigs and lows;
a T2 Burst Aerator and a T1 Metastasis Adjuster
3 gyros and 1 TC
I would also script for tracking and falloff.
This would increase your overall DPS at all ranges, there would be a drop in tracking from 0.13 to 0.12 but at 40km you would see a 100+ rise in DPS. Also your ROF is increased to 2.99 so you can pop frigs/ cruisers faster. -
March 04, 2010, 12:18:22 am
LieutenantReputation: 56
this loadout is outdated, and isn't going to be updated -
April 20, 2010, 10:50:12 pm
Member 5th ClassReputation: 0
Would be amazing if you could update it though
-
April 21, 2010, 12:33:32 am
Commander
Reputation: 121
here's an ud for you. figure rest out depending on your wallet and tanking needs.
3x gyro, 2x tc, t2 burst, t1 ambit
-1 for having a pdu instead of te in the low. -
April 21, 2010, 12:21:59 pm
LieutenantReputation: 56
here's an ud for you. figure rest out depending on your wallet and tanking needs.
3x gyro, 2x tc, t2 burst, t1 ambit
-1 for having a pdu instead of te in the low.
This loadout is out of date, and I won't be updating it again.
Your Golem's better though, but definitely not by much. +1 from me. The thing that makes this fit really awesome is it's extreme range versatility. Wow.