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Loadout: Vargur: Minnie God of Missions. Dominion Ready.


Vargur: Minnie God of Missions. Dominion Ready.


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Ship fitting - Built on May 6, 2009

Vargur, 918,989,000 ISK
+ 80 17 -
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Salvager II
Empty
Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Core A-Type 100MN Afterburner
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Ammo
Barrage L, 529 ISK
Republic Fleet EMP L, 1,013 ISK
Republic Fleet Fusion L, 986 ISK
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L, 1,004 ISK
Cargo
Drones
Hammerhead II, 627,999 ISK
Hobgoblin II, 414,715 ISK
Build Views Tagged as
Dominion 1.1.1
28th January 2010
56,411 Active tank, Expensive, Gun boat, PvE, Shield tank
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[Vargur, Vargur: Minnie God of Missions. Dominion Ready.]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Core A-Type 100MN Afterburner
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier

800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Salvager II
Empty

Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II


Hammerhead II
Hobgoblin II
You need to upgrade your Flash Player
Version 1 changed on Mar 3, 2010
[Vargur, Vargur: Minnie God of Missions. Dominion Ready.]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Core A-Type 100MN Afterburner
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier

800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
800mm Repeating Cannon II
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Salvager II
Empty

Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II


Hammerhead II
Hobgoblin II

Positive ratings (80)

  • Akularen
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Negative ratings (17)

  • bloodhoof
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Title Author Date Ratings
Stats assume all skills at V. Use EVEHQ for detailed combat simulations.

This feature is currently in Beta.


Targeting Maximum targets 10
Maximum targeting range 101250 m
Scan resolution 181.25 mm
Sensor strength 0 11 0 0
Size/Movement Max velocity 411.99
Inertia modifier 0.07425
Signature radius 360 m
Cargo capacity 1150 m3
Systems Capacitor capacity 7750 GJ
Capacitor recharge time 13 minutes 45 seconds
Powergrid 9063 / 16125 MW
CPU 677 / 781.25 tf
Shields Shield capacity 10375
Shield recharge time 28 minutes 24 seconds
Shield resistances 68.4% 78.93% 74.72% 70.51%
Armor Armor hit points 9125
Armor resistances 70% 10% 25% 43.13%
Structure Structure hit points 8625
Structure resistances 0% 0% 0% 0%
Drones Drone capacity 75 m3
Drone bandwidth 50 Mbit/sec
Drone control range 0 m
How to fund this loadout with PLEX:

Current estimated total value, ISK: 3,553,808,086
Sell this many PLEX* to fund: 5
Convert this many ETC to PLEX: 3 Purchase ETC here

*You may only sell PLEX for ISK via the CCP Secure Transfer Method
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Significantly updated AGAIN and ready for Dominion!

Those of you who have seen this fit recently might notice quite a few changes. This setup has lost its cap booster and damage control, and gained a tracking enhancer and tracking computer. Why? For those of you not following the EVE-O testing and ideas boards, once Dominion comes out these modules will modify falloff as well as optimal, with the difference being Falloff will have no stacking penalty.

Some other gems coming with Dominion: EMP, Phased Plasma and Fusion got quite the damage boost. My stats below incorporate this into the DPS values.

As for the reduction in tanking ability: I can honestly say after using this setup for months that the cap booster was unnecessary. I almost never used it, as the setup's sustained tank was beefy enough for even the AE bonus room. Without a cargohold full of cap boosters, the need to make wreck balls is gone as well. So two of the tractor beams have been changed for Salvager IIs so you can efficiently salvage as you kill. (If you followed the ego-fueled arguments below, after testing the advice was actually solid.)

Now to address some of the more common questions that might come up:

Why Dual 650mm instead of 800mm ACs?
In short, because they don't need fitting mods, and the low you would use for a PDS gives you better applied DPS by using the new falloff-boosted Tracking Enhancer. You could use a +3% grid implant, but then you'd be losing out on implants that improve your turret's performance. 800mm ACs only provide a ~4.6% increase in DPS, while d650s provide ~12% better tracking.

Which script should you use with the Tracking Computer?
Both. Since the range script will modify falloff in Dominion, you want to choose your script based on the mission. The Range Script will result in more applied DPS for targets beyond 15KM, while the Tracking Script will be superior for targets inside that range. I can provide the statistics for anyone who is curious.




Time for the stats. (Updated AGAIN!)

Resists: 68.4% EM 70.5% TH 74.7% KIN 78.9% EXP
Defense:
401 Sustained, 1283 Reinforced (about 2 minutes sustained boosting) with all modules running except AB.
588 Sustained, 1943 Reinforced when using the HG Crystal set.

Firepower:
Drone DPS = 158.4
Republic EMP/Phased Plasma/Fusion = 980 gun DPS 4.3KM + 64KM range, 73KM Falloff with Range script
1138 DPS with drones

Barrage = 781 DPS 7.8KM + 96KM range, 110KM Falloff with Range script
939 DPS with drones

NOTE: All stats updated with final release stats for Dominion. WOOT PROJECTILE BUFF!

3/4/2010 EDIT: Changed rigs and the lows. See last post for details.
5/10/2010 EDIT: Removed some misinformation in the description that was a hold-over of an early testing state of Dominion. Final product was very different for ACs.
Attachments

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Comments

  • May 14, 2009, 09:51:47 pm

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    Just wanted to give an update.

    With a much less pimped version of this (I have an A-type booster, CN SBA, and still have CN Invulns. No Crystal implants. T1 rigs, though the T2 aren't THAT expensive), I got through the bonus room of AE and could have taken a nap.

    I switched out the AB for a Shield Explosive Hardener II for the mission, since Angels swarm you and you warp within 5km of the gates. Used a total of ten cap booster 800s for the entire mission, and some of that is due to forgetting to turn it off. Completed all five pockets plus bonus room in about 45 minutes, and that includes time spent making wreck balls.

    After a bit of experience with it, I'd recommend using 5x Hammerhead II and 5x Hobgoblin IIs over the drones I have listed above. Ogres are slower than a turtle wading through honey...
  • May 15, 2009, 01:03:29 am

    Master Chief Petty Officer
    *
    Reputation: 14
    el sabor has an aura about them. el sabor has an aura about them. el sabor has an aura about them. el sabor has an aura about them. el sabor has an aura about them. el sabor has an aura about them. el sabor has an aura about them. el sabor has an aura about them. el sabor has an aura about them. el sabor has an aura about them.

    Looks pretty good actually :) Cap booster as an emergency option is a good idea.

    Just to nitpick I guess you're not actually doing 1000 dps since you're fighting in falloff most of the time. I bet i comes in handy when those angels close in!
  • May 15, 2009, 05:40:49 am

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    Looks pretty good actually :) Cap booster as an emergency option is a good idea.

    Just to nitpick I guess you're not actually doing 1000 dps since you're fighting in falloff most of the time. I bet i comes in handy when those angels close in!


    Yep, you're correct, the majority of the time you'll be fighting in falloff. Angel BSs have a habit of getting into Autocannon optimal range though  :knuppel2:

    With the original fit you'd still be doing 700DPS at 40km, however, which is incredible for ACs. The frigs, cruisers, and BCs are melted about as quickly as you can lock them. And considering 40km is about the farthest you want to pop a ship when in a Marauder (if you care about the wrecks), that's more than enough range and damage in my book.

    I've absolutely loved my dumbed down version of this (if my endorsement matters at all, heh).  I may get around to posting an all T2 fit, that has better stats than some of the other "realistic" fits I'm seeing...
  • May 15, 2009, 07:24:19 am

    Petty Officer 1st. Class
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    Reputation: 25
    balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. balcony jumper forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know.

    i love it
  • May 15, 2009, 07:31:43 am

    Senior Chief Petty Officer
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    Reputation: 19
    jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know.

    do you use barrage L as well and just forgot to put it in there or do u get the insane falloff with fleet EMP?
  • May 15, 2009, 07:45:57 am

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    do you use barrage L as well and just forgot to put it in there or do u get the insane falloff with fleet EMP?

    You get insane falloff with Fleet EMP (thanks to the ship bonus and Ambits). Mwahah.  With Barrage L, if my memory serves me correctly, you should be able to hit solidly out  to 70km. (But I try to kill everything within 40km anyway)
  • May 15, 2009, 07:50:41 am

    Senior Chief Petty Officer
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    Reputation: 19
    jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. jrt224 forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know.

    yea forgot ab the t2 rigs and then i looked at the bonuses haha damn thats far with emp but yea you dont wanna kill them at 70k cause your tractors dont reach that far, right?
  • June 15, 2009, 12:05:40 pm

    Lieutenant Commander
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    Reputation: 43
    Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. Wicked-Prayer forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know.

    I have a pimped dream fit version of this, but dude thank you for giving the vargur a fitting it deserves, best marauder IMO, well the most fun to fly.

    +1 from me
  • June 15, 2009, 02:11:19 pm

    Lieutenant
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    Reputation: 56
    greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know.

    I've got 3 comments for this:

    1. The DC really doesn't do anything for a shield tank in pve, i would drop it.

    2. Some sort of tracking mod would be nice, hey look you have a free spot where that DC used to be.

    3. You should look at maybe getting the pithum A-type medium booster, that would still give you a really nice tank but you could lose the cap booster for a tracking comp.


    Other than that not to shabby, i like it.
  • June 21, 2009, 11:46:36 am

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    I've got 3 comments for this:

    1. The DC really doesn't do anything for a shield tank in pve, i would drop it.

    2. Some sort of tracking mod would be nice, hey look you have a free spot where that DC used to be.

    3. You should look at maybe getting the pithum A-type medium booster, that would still give you a really nice tank but you could lose the cap booster for a tracking comp.

    Other than that not to shabby, i like it.

    Thanks for the suggestions, Green. I'll go over what making these changes does to the stats quick:

    Dropping the DC for a Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer brings the Omni defense from 2221 down to 1943. Remember, the DC doesn't get a stacking nerf, and a drop of around 275 defense efficiency seems significant to me...BUT that's still way more tank than is necessary to sleep through the AE bonus room.  You get 10% more tracking and a very slight boost to range (.2KM optimal with RF EMP) out of the deal though, so I'd say it's still a great call to make the swap out.

    Switching out the XL Booster and the Cap Booster is a bit more dramatic though. Fitting a Pithum A-type M Booster and a Gallente Navy Tracking Computer drops your defensive efficiency down to 907, which lasts about 17 minutes before you cap out. You can sustain the tank at 765 without AB. You trade that for a 35% boost to tracking, however.

    With that tank, you could still do the AE bonus room, but it'll be hairy as hell, and if you aren't careful there's a good chance you can lose your multi-billion investment. If you want to go all-out offense, it's still a reasonable switch.


    All that said, I plan to leave the setup as-is. My dumbed-down version performs admirably and doesn't have any tracking problems (NPCs love flying straight at you), and I like being able to treat the AE bonus room like it's any other easy mission. Anyone else reading this thread should take a good look at Greengimp's advice, though.

  • June 21, 2009, 12:10:19 pm

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    While I'm at it...how about I post a completely dumbed down version of this fit, and its stats?

    You can find it through this link: A Better Realistic Vargur. T2 Fit
  • July 02, 2009, 12:15:30 pm

    Member 5th Class
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    Reputation: 0
    AllHallowsEve has no influence.

    so is this fitting the best potential for a vargur?, i would be curious for ur idea of a PvP fitting (if there is such a fitting for this ship) +1
  • July 02, 2009, 02:02:13 pm

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    so is this fitting the best potential for a vargur?, i would be curious for ur idea of a PvP fitting (if there is such a fitting for this ship) +1

    Hmm, with Estamel's gear you can get the tank over 4100 Omni, but that would just be unrealistic ;) Other than that, I haven't seen better numbers on a setup that can be practically flown, even if it is expensive.

    I'm sort of a carebear though, so I don't have a lot of opinions on a PVP Vargur fit...though I'm sure it would need a LADAR-ECCM somewhere in the lows. I'd just be nervous taking something that expensive into Pew Pew.

    But now you've got me curious...
  • August 18, 2009, 12:07:59 pm

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    Slight edit to the setup, but one that changes the numbers.

    Removed the Ogre IIs, because they just aren't practical. After a lot of experience in it, I'm certain you should be using a flight of Hammerheads and Hobgobs, or of Valkyries and Warriors.

    Of course, that messes up my beloved EFT DPS, and drops it to 988, into false advertisement territory. However...if you're using Crystals, you better be using damage implants, and with those it's at a safe 1073 DPS.

    Yes, it's still insanely expensive (not even going to touch officer mods), and a bit impractical. Yes, it's still so overtanked it's a little scary. But if you're going to try to push the Vargur to its limits in every possible way, I still haven't come up with anything better.  ;D
  • August 18, 2009, 12:56:22 pm

    Member 5th Class
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    Reputation: 0
    Felonious Hack has no influence.

    Holy. Does a Golem tank better than this? You know, while still doing good damage?
  • August 18, 2009, 01:33:55 pm

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    Holy. Does a Golem tank better than this? You know, while still doing good damage?

    Mmm. Vargur doesn't hold a candle to the Golem in much of anything. Including killing Angels, sadly, though it might be close. But still, shield tank works much better than armor tank for PVE, in general.

    Though the better you get, and the more experience you get, the less tank you need for missions. I just like pushing stuff as far as it will go, while still being useful ;D
  • September 10, 2009, 10:50:40 am

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    Whoah, somebody loves me. (Or this fit, rather.) Thanks for the +'s, folks! If you can afford it, I hope it's raking in the isk for ya.
  • September 27, 2009, 06:23:38 am

    Member 5th Class
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    Reputation: 0
    The Nomad has no influence.

     One of the best laid out fits and explanations I have seen on here. Well done. +1
  • September 29, 2009, 09:10:56 am

    Member 1st Class
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    Reputation: 1
    oteb has no influence.

    solid fit
  • October 16, 2009, 12:21:53 pm

    Member 5th Class
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    notanothereftwarrior has no influence.

    That's quite a bad fit probably based on EFT warrioring instead of actual experience.

    1. It's overtanked: Gist X-type XL booster + 2x CN invulnerability field + 1x officer PDS + 1x t2/faction cap recharger is plenty and leaves a slot to fit a tracking computer (which is really important). With that setup I don't have to worry about aggro vs Angels though I have to be smart vs Sansha and rarely vs Serps. But you don't want to aggro whole rooms of Sansha anyway for tactical reasons. And anyway you'll need all the cargo space you can spare to store salvage and loot.

    2. 2x Salvager + 1x tractor beam is much better than 3 tractor beams. Personally I think people who fly marauders and go back after they finished the mission to salvage are clueless and shouldn't write about marauders cause they have know idea how to get the best performance out of them.

    3. Gotan's ACs are by miles better than T2 vs everything. That's personal experience. Too bad these days they're quite rare and expensive.

    And of course you're wrong about the Golem. Even with Estamel's siege launchers, RF TPs it's just too slow vs Angels. I think most people who complain about the Vargur don't know how to fly it. So it's not the ship, it's you. Don't take it personally, you're not the only clueless person out there.
  • October 16, 2009, 01:04:40 pm

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    So it's not the ship, it's you. Don't take it personally, you're not the only clueless person out there.

    Hahaha, don't worry, I didn't take it personally. I've got you for company. Where do I begin...  ::)

    First of all, I flew this fit for months before I sold off the most of the equipment and bought a year of gametime in PLEX. It was just more ship than I needed, and I fly my T2 Vargur fit now. It performed fantastically during that time. Let's go through your list though:

    1. You are correct, it's overtanked. Way overtanked. Ridiculously overtanked. But I didn't have to sacrifice a single point of damage to do it. You can just as easily take out the Heavy Cap Booster and put in a TCII for tracking, and lose nothing.

    1b. If you are fighting Sansha's in a Vargur, you're doing it wrong. Cherry pick Angel missions, and you'll be making much more isk/hour.

    2. Opinionated single-post troll alts shouldn't write at all. But I suppose this is the Internet, and trolls aren't going anywhere, so let's get to it...

    My wreck ball is complete by the time the last rat dies. I go right on to the next mission I accepted and kill everything there, and have another wreck ball by the time the last rat dies. Once my missions are done, it takes one minute 30 seconds to switch into a triple Salvage Tackle Hurricane, 8x Salvager IIs, and 5 minutes a mission (since they're all balled up) to salvage them.

    I spent 5.25 minutes more than you did to wring every last isk out of a mission. After I'm done missioning for the day. Oh noes!

    That said, 2x Salvagers and 1x Tractor is viable for anyone interested in missioning that way. Trade the Heavy Cap Booster for a Tracking Computer, and you now have the cargo space for it. Voila.

    3. I'm sure using two Estamel's Invulnerability Fields would make for a better tank, as well. Pardon me for setting the limit at Deadspace gear though.

    And of course you're wrong about the Golem. Even with Estamel's siege launchers, RF TPs it's just too slow vs Angels. I think most people who complain about the Vargur don't know how to fly it.

    I'm sure you also have first-hand experience flying a Golem with Estamel's Siege Launchers. I salute your deep pockets and expert opinion, sir, but I'll be leaving this fit as is.
  • October 16, 2009, 01:26:30 pm

    Lieutenant
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    Reputation: 56
    greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know.

    And of course you're wrong about the Golem. Even with Estamel's siege launchers, RF TPs it's just too slow vs Angels. I think most people who complain about the Vargur don't know how to fly it. So it's not the ship, it's you. Don't take it personally, you're not the only clueless person out there.

    This just shows your own personal ignorance.  Anyone using anything but T2 launchers on a Golem is a moron, the reason is that you need jav's.  And while the Vargur is a very good ship against angels it does not beat the Golem in mission times.  The best it can do is tie in mission times.
  • October 16, 2009, 02:29:19 pm

    Member 5th Class
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    notanothereftwarrior has no influence.

    1. You are correct, it's overtanked. Way overtanked. Ridiculously overtanked. But I didn't have to sacrifice a single point of damage to do it. You can just as easily take out the Heavy Cap Booster and put in a TCII for tracking, and lose nothing.

    You didn't sacrifice raw DPS, you sacrificed effective DPS. That you didn't realise this during the months you used this ship is your problem not mine. Though it does show your savvy and that you're interested in EFT stats, not actual performance. Tracking is really important and I hope when you wrote TCII you meant something else.

    1b. If you are fighting Sansha's in a Vargur, you're doing it wrong. Cherry pick Angel missions, and you'll be making much more isk/hour.

    Right I will swap ships and clones in the middle of a WC just to satisfy your warped perception of efficiency. Considering that in the missions you get in Angel space from minmatar agents Sansha are practically always closer than 20km (except first room of WC), and falloff is not effected by NPC tracking disruption the Vargur is close to being the best turret ship vs Sansha in minmatar space. Sansha missions don't hurt your ISK/hour if done right.

    2. Opinionated single-post troll alts shouldn't write at all. But I suppose this is the Internet, and trolls aren't going anywhere, so let's get to it...

    That's funny, I really like your type. Considering that not that long ago you started with a single post as well what did you think about yourself? Discriminating based on the number of posts is pretty lame. But hey at least I don't write about things I have no experience with.

    My wreck ball is complete by the time the last rat dies. I go right on to the next mission I accepted and kill everything there, and have another wreck ball by the time the last rat dies. Once my missions are done, it takes one minute 30 seconds to switch into a triple Salvage Tackle Hurricane, 8x Salvager IIs, and 5 minutes a mission (since they're all balled up) to salvage them.

    I spent 5.25 minutes more than you did to wring every last isk out of a mission. After I'm done missioning for the day. Oh noes!

    It's so sweet that you explained to me how it's done considering I'd tested your way, mine, and 2x tractors + 1 salvager as well and guess what, yours was the worst. But hey I don't care if you make less ISK.

    3. I'm sure using two Estamel's Invulnerability Fields would make for a better tank, as well. Pardon me for setting the limit at Deadspace gear though.

    I bought Gotan's d650s for less than 250mill, and 800mms were sold for 1bill 8 months ago. That's pretty reasonable considering a good enough missionrunner makes 80+mill/hour. Estamel's invul fields were always expensive, as an example they're bad.

    And of course you're wrong about the Golem. Even with Estamel's siege launchers, RF TPs it's just too slow vs Angels. I think most people who complain about the Vargur don't know how to fly it.

    I'm sure you also have first-hand experience flying a Golem with Estamel's Siege Launchers. I salute your deep pockets and expert opinion, sir, but I'll be leaving this fit as is.

    Oh, at least you stopped the "the Vargur is good vs Angels, but I'm sure the Golem is better" nonsense. There's still hope for you after all. FYI 8 months ago I bought Estamel's siege launchers for 700mill. Getting good deals has nothing to do with one's pockets.

    And leave your setup as it is if you like, but know this: it's not good (you didn't gave me a single argument explaining the lack of a TC) and way cheaper setups will outperform it.

    Quote from: me
    So it's not the ship, it's you. Don't take it personally, you're not the only clueless person out there.

    Hahaha, don't worry, I didn't take it personally. I've got you for company.

    Just tell me where I was wrong. It would be really nice to know cause what I've seen from you were only weak attempts to explain why you used an overtanked suboptimal Vargur setup. Considering according to you you have actually used this thing and didn't realise your setup's shortcomings I really don't know why I even bother.

    Morning edit: 800mms + TC + PDS are superior to d650s + Cap booster + DC in almost every possible way. DPS, range, tracking, ammo consumption you name it. It has only 2 drawbacks: a need for 1-2 extra reload in longer missions, and a weaker tank that's still more than enough.

    And I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings but you arrogantly called your crap EFT-warrior setup the Minnie God of Missions. You're practically asking for it.
  • October 16, 2009, 02:38:17 pm

    Member 5th Class
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    notanothereftwarrior has no influence.

    And of course you're wrong about the Golem. Even with Estamel's siege launchers, RF TPs it's just too slow vs Angels. I think most people who complain about the Vargur don't know how to fly it. So it's not the ship, it's you. Don't take it personally, you're not the only clueless person out there.

    This just shows your own personal ignorance.  Anyone using anything but T2 launchers on a Golem is a moron, the reason is that you need jav's.  And while the Vargur is a very good ship against angels it does not beat the Golem in mission times.  The best it can do is tie in mission times.

    You couldn't be more wrong. If you need to use javs vs Angels then you don't know what you're doing. It's just so easy to get every NPC in range I don't know why you can't do it. But call me a moron cause I can. I must be doing it the wrong way. Maybe I should do it like you. Tell me what's your secret?

    And yes in the hands of a reasonably good pilot with a reasonably good setup the Vargur comfortably beats the reasonably good Golem pilot's reasonably fitted ship vs Angels. Been there, done that.

    Edit: you think that you can beat a Vargur with Javs? Seriously?
  • October 17, 2009, 03:52:55 am

    Lieutenant
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    Reputation: 56
    greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. greengimp forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know.

    You couldn't be more wrong. If you need to use javs vs Angels then you don't know what you're doing. It's just so easy to get every NPC in range I don't know why you can't do it. But call me a moron cause I can. I must be doing it the wrong way. Maybe I should do it like you. Tell me what's your secret?

    And yes in the hands of a reasonably good pilot with a reasonably good setup the Vargur comfortably beats the reasonably good Golem pilot's reasonably fitted ship vs Angels. Been there, done that.

    Edit: you think that you can beat a Vargur with Javs? Seriously?

    There are 3 angel missions i believe in which there are ships that orbit outside your range on none jav ammo.  How is your golem going to do those missions?

    No a Golem is not going to beat a vargur with javs, the javs are only for getting into range and the few ships that orbit outside your range.  On the other hand a Golem with CN torps is going to wipe the floor with a vargur.
  • October 17, 2009, 04:08:59 am

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    notanothereftwarrior has no influence.

    There are 3 angel missions i believe in which there are ships that orbit outside your range on none jav ammo.  How is your golem going to do those missions?

    There's no Angel BS with 40km+ orbit range and only 2 (the rare ones) have 34km+. And you know fitting ABs on marauders is not forbidden (not that it's really needed, using the right tactics is enough most of the time). You should try it someday, maybe you'd have better luck with the Vargur too and you'd stop posting nonsense.

    No a Golem is not going to beat a vargur with javs, the javs are only for getting into range and the few ships that orbit outside your range.  On the other hand a Golem with CN torps is going to wipe the floor with a vargur.

    Ah I've seen your Golem vids on youtube :D You think those are actually good mission completion times? I'm pretty sure I could almost beat you in Vengeance with only 3 turrets :D Edit: after thinking a bit more about it I came to the conclusion that I could at least match your time. How's that for wiping the floor with the Vargur?
  • October 17, 2009, 07:37:19 am

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    And I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings but you arrogantly called your crap EFT-warrior setup the Minnie God of Missions. You're practically asking for it.

    You didn't hurt them at all. This is amusing. Especially the many layers of hypocrisy in you calling me arrogant.  ::)

    How about you post your Vargur setup? Or a video of  you pwning in it so fantastically that you think you're the only person in EVE qualified to fly the ship?

    Without that you're just a noisy troll without facts, without evidence, without any credibility. And nothing more.
  • October 17, 2009, 08:23:52 am

    Member 5th Class
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    notanothereftwarrior has no influence.

    And I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings but you arrogantly called your crap EFT-warrior setup the Minnie God of Missions. You're practically asking for it.

    You didn't hurt them at all. This is amusing. Especially the many layers of hypocrisy in you calling me arrogant.  ::)

    How about you post your Vargur setup? Or a video of  you pwning in it so fantastically that you think you're the only person in EVE qualified to fly the ship?

    Without that you're just a noisy troll without facts, without evidence, without any credibility. And nothing more.

    Lol. I am the noisy troll? I haven't seen a proper argument from you so far and you say that I have no facts. I pointed out the faults in your and gimp's setups, provided a clearly better fit, while you're doing what? Called me a troll and...  no, I'm afraid that's all. It tells a lot if that's the best you can do.

    If you call your ship the Minnie God of Missions at least deliver a half decent setup.

    Edit: I'm not the only one who owns in a Vargur. Normally I don't post but this never-ending bitching about the Vargur months after months is just terribly annoying when the only problem is the pilots who have no clue how to fit and fly their ship. You fit an AB and then make balls of wrecks and don't even know why I said that you're clueless? Serves you well.
  • October 17, 2009, 11:01:17 am

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    Lol. I am the noisy troll? I haven't seen a proper argument from you so far and you say that I have no facts. I pointed out the faults in your and gimp's setups, provided a clearly better fit, while you're doing what? Called me a troll and...  no, I'm afraid that's all. It tells a lot if that's the best you can do.

    Really now. All I've seen above are incoherent blurbs of butthurt because someone disrespected your favorite ship. But if you want to show us a proper Vargur fit, it's actually really easy:

    There's a little button at the top of the screen that says "Create." Click it and show us how it's done. Write in the description why it's the best Vargur fit ever. If your fit is clearly superior, I'm sure it'll rise to the top.

    If it's good, I'll even give you a thumb's up. ;)
  • October 17, 2009, 01:18:28 pm

    Member 5th Class
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    notanothereftwarrior has no influence.

    Really now. All I've seen above are incoherent blurbs of butthurt because someone disrespected your favorite ship. But if you want to show us a proper Vargur fit, it's actually really easy:

    There's a little button at the top of the screen that says "Create." Click it and show us how it's done. Write in the description why it's the best Vargur fit ever. If your fit is clearly superior, I'm sure it'll rise to the top.

    If it's good, I'll even give you a thumb's up. ;)

    I already told you how to improve your setup (800mm, TC, PDS). Isn't that enough? Have you even responded to that? Of course not. You accuse me of trolling when actually you had no substance in your last 2 posts. Seriously why don't you even try to defend your fit? It's hopeless but still it would be more interesting than your weak attempts to derail a discussion about your own setup.

    And for the record the Vargur is not my favourite ship, and you didn't disrespect it: you just posted a fairly poor setup and gave it a fancy name.
  • October 17, 2009, 01:56:04 pm

    Crewman
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    Reputation: 2
    Liang has no influence.

    I rather agree that the setup is less than optimal, but I also agree that the Golem will obliterate a Vargur in mission completion times on average.

    There will be missions that I'd expect a Vargur to be faster at - namely any of them that you'd want to fit an AB for (Recon 2/3, WC, Massive Attack, The Score, etc...) .... but those are missions I'd generally decline anyway, so it's not a big deal.

    -Liang

    Ed: FFS!!!! I post this, and then get Massive Attack and the Score back to back... and I already blew my 4 hours on Buzz Kill.  :|
  • October 17, 2009, 02:15:33 pm

    Member 5th Class
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    notanothereftwarrior has no influence.

    I rather agree that the setup is less than optimal, but I also agree that the Golem will obliterate a Vargur in mission completion times on average.

    There will be missions that I'd expect a Vargur to be faster at - namely any of them that you'd want to fit an AB for (Recon 2/3, WC, Massive Attack, The Score, etc...) .... but those are missions I'd generally decline anyway, so it's not a big deal.

    You're wrong. Have you actually flown a Vargur or you still base your opinion on graphs and your Mael?
  • October 17, 2009, 06:24:44 pm

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    Seriously why don't you even try to defend your fit? It's hopeless but still it would be more interesting than your weak attempts to derail a discussion about your own setup.

    And for the record the Vargur is not my favourite ship, and you didn't disrespect it: you just posted a fairly poor setup and gave it a fancy name.

    You're awfully hung up on the name. But if you're curious why I'm ignoring your points, it's because the only thing you have to your arguments is "because I said so." You give no justification beside "it's better" and "I've done it, I have the isk, I have personal experience."  Your experience is meaningless to me. I don't know who you are, that you actually know what you're talking about, or that you even own a Vargur.

    All I care about are careful and well-reasoned arguments and you fail awfully hard at that. So it's more fun to just blow you off. ;)

    I'll have an actual, reasoned discussion with you on the topic when you show you're capable of it yourself. Usage and understanding of statistics would help.

    But I'll give you this: the afterburner isn't doing anything for this (it's only situationally useful), and a Tracking Computer would improve the real damage applied to target. It's now in the fit. (Tossed it in the T2 setup as well.)

    I rather agree that the setup is less than optimal, but I also agree that the Golem will obliterate a Vargur in mission completion times on average.

    I would be interested in hearing your opinion Liang. Even if it ends up being the same as NAEW, I can count on a valid understanding of EVE's mechanics behind it. (And I'm fairly sure it won't involve officer equipment.)
  • October 18, 2009, 01:12:22 am

    Member 5th Class
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    notanothereftwarrior has no influence.

    You're awfully hung up on the name. But if you're curious why I'm ignoring your points, it's because the only thing you have to your arguments is "because I said so." You give no justification beside "it's better" and "I've done it, I have the isk, I have personal experience."  Your experience is meaningless to me. I don't know who you are, that you actually know what you're talking about, or that you even own a Vargur.

    No offense but even if I posted stats, mission completion times you could just say that you don't know me I could be lying, couldn't you? First when I saw your setup I thought that you'd never ever flown this ship cause it's just so overtanked it didn't even crossed my mind that it's more than an EFT warriors wet dream. But when you said you did, I just took your word for it without any further question. It's worth mentioning I was told several times that I was too trusting :)

    I think after my posts it's pretty understandable that I protect my true identity: for missions I rarely use a ship worth less than 10b and I don't want suicide gankers come knocking on my ships hull. I use expensive setups cause I like flying them, destroying ships as fast as possible makes missions less annoying. And of course officer/deadspace items are a good investment as well.

    All I care about are careful and well-reasoned arguments and you fail awfully hard at that. So it's more fun to just blow you off. ;)

    Yep it's always easier to just troll. But in your own thread? :)

    I'll have an actual, reasoned discussion with you on the topic when you show you're capable of it yourself. Usage and understanding of statistics would help.

    LOL. You posted stats from EFT. It doesn't get any lower than that. I think you should get off that high horse of yours really fast :)

    Edit: 800mms + TC + PDS >> d650s + CB + DC in almost every possible way (except tank) - that should be clear without any stats for anyone who played the game for more than 6 months.

    But hey let me waste another minute of my time:

    800s + SS/GN TC + faction PDS vs d650s + HCB + DC (the rest of the setups is the same, no implants, no drones, barrage)
    DPS: 789 vs 752
    Range: 6000+64800 vs 5400+64800
    Tracking: 0.07518 vs 0.06187
    Tank (AB on): 347/1291 vs 1466/1466
    Tank (AB off): 562/1291 vs 1466/1466

    Considering that even without the cap booster this ship is still overtanked the setup with the 800mm ACs is superior. And I think I just proved that you had given up raw DPS to fit that tank.

    Happy now?

    /Edit

    But I'll give you this: the afterburner isn't doing anything for this (it's only situationally useful), and a Tracking Computer would improve the real damage applied to target. It's now in the fit. (Tossed it in the T2 setup as well.)

    You need both the AB and the TC. It's not either or. Normally Vargur pilots use the AB to get close to their targets to increase the applied damage. It is really helpful in practically every room of every mission it's not situational. There are lots of "tricks" you can't even do without an AB. Just look at a graph, you don't have to take my word for it :D Of course you don't use your AB cause you're too busy making balls of wrecks that's why your mission completion times suffer.

    TCs are important for 2 reasons: to hit orbiting ships and to compensate for the increased transversal speed of your targets when your AB is on. Even before the web nerf fitting a TC was more useful than e.g. fitting a domi web. It's a really helpful module but I'm afraid I can't really offer anything else but my word (which isn't worth a lot as it was pointed out by you :)). Just try it out and you'll see the difference. What can you lose? :)

    If after this you still think that I have no experience with this ship it's your loss. You wanted things from me that you didn't provide. You got clear arguments from me for the TC and AB while your best was "the afterburner isn't doing anything for this (it's only situationally useful)". Does that qualify as a well-reasoned argument? I'm pretty sure I can't find the statistics proving your point :D
  • October 18, 2009, 12:12:28 pm

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Reputation: 13
    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    No offense but even if I posted stats, mission completion times you could just say that you don't know me I could be lying, couldn't you?

    That's not true actually.  Now that you're taking the time to actually explain your argument, I'm more willing to listen. It could just be that you have more examples in between insults in your most recent post, but I'd go as far as saying you're starting to sound less arrogant as well. ;)

    I think after my posts it's pretty understandable that I protect my true identity: for missions I rarely use a ship worth less than 10b and I don't want suicide gankers come knocking on my ships hull. I use expensive setups cause I like flying them, destroying ships as fast as possible makes missions less annoying. And of course officer/deadspace items are a good investment as well.

    While that's totally understandable, you can't be surprised then when I don't take you at your amusingly condescending word. Had you taken the time to explain your suggestions properly in your first post, we could have gotten to the meat of this argument faster. I'm open to criticism if you can actually support it.

    And now you are, so let's get to it!

    800s + SS/GN TC + faction PDS vs d650s + HCB + DC (the rest of the setups is the same, no implants, no drones, barrage)
    DPS: 789 vs 752
    Range: 6000+64800 vs 5400+64800
    Tracking: 0.07518 vs 0.06187
    Tank (AB on): 347/1291 vs 1466/1466
    Tank (AB off): 562/1291 vs 1466/1466

    Considering that even without the cap booster this ship is still overtanked the setup with the 800mm ACs is superior. And I think I just proved that you had given up raw DPS to fit that tank.

    Happy now?

    Yep! While we could probably argue for a couple more days about to what extent EFT is actually useful (weather stations aren't always reliable, but you don't scoff when someone tells you it's going to be 40 degrees outside tomorrow, right?), thanks for providing the numbers.

    Your improvements work out to a 4.6% increase in DPS, which isn't bad. I hope it doesn't take explaining that 600m more optimal is a wash, and though my fit tanks more, I agree it isn't necessary. (Part of the reason I'm more focused on the T2 fit, but you're more interested in this one I guess.)

    The real improvement is going to come from tracking, so lets talk about that. First some corrected numbers (No biggie in the difference between mine and yours here, I'd just prefer to compare the final real tracking):

    800mm AC II + Motion Prediction + Vargur Bonus + GN TC:   .1002375
    This current posted setup (ED: Minus the TC): .0825
    650mm AC II + MP + Bonus + GN TC: .11375

    We can see that your suggestion would improve tracking by ~17.7%, which is a good improvement. But using 650mm instead, you have a ~12% improvement over the 800mm ACs.

    Here's an honest question: Given the following statement of yours...
    TCs are important for 2 reasons: to hit orbiting ships and to compensate for the increased transversal speed of your targets when your AB is on.
    ...and that 800s only increase your damage by 4.6%, but 650s increase your tracking over 800s by 12%, why would you not prefer them when all that matters is final real DPS applied to target?

    You need both the AB and the TC. It's not either or. Normally Vargur pilots use the AB to get close to their targets to increase the applied damage. It is really helpful in practically every room of every mission it's not situational. There are lots of "tricks" you can't even do without an AB.

    You got me here. Getting into range is as important as tracking your target, and both are necessary. I'll be messing with my fit and trying to get some practical experience with the changes, and if it tests out okay, I'll make the alterations on BC.

    If after this you still think that I have no experience with this ship it's your loss. You wanted things from me that you didn't provide.

    Nope, the above is good enough for me. If you weren't willing to provide reasons for your suggested changes, I had no interest in proving your points for you. But now that you're revealing the genuine logic behind your choices, I'll listen to what you have to say.
  • October 18, 2009, 02:34:47 pm

    Member 5th Class
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    notanothereftwarrior has no influence.

    Here's an honest question: Given the following statement of yours...
    TCs are important for 2 reasons: to hit orbiting ships and to compensate for the increased transversal speed of your targets when your AB is on.
    ...and that 800s only increase your damage by 4.6%, but 650s increase your tracking over 800s by 12%, why would you not prefer them when all that matters is final real DPS applied to target?

    With no tracking computer dual 650mm autocannons perform slightly better 800mm autocannons - that's personal experience, you can't prove that with the primitive calculations people use. Tbh it's just easier to test it. But with a tracking computer thanks to the nature of the tracking formula the d650s benefit less from the increased tracking and the difference between the performance of the 2 tiers was already small to begin with. I'm fairly sure both types perform pretty similarly, but you're so hung up on stats I wanted to provide a setup that's clearly better than yours in as many ways as possible.

    Btw if you want to use d650s you can fit a TE instead of a DC/PDS - after Dominion it will be almost mandatory.

    My favourite Vargur setup is so far from what an average player can afford that it's not worth posting but it includes both a TC and d650s.

    You got me here. Getting into range is as important as tracking your target, and both are necessary. I'll be messing with my fit and trying to get some practical experience with the changes, and if it tests out okay, I'll make the alterations on BC.

    No offense but you used a Vargur for months possibly and I had to tell you the basics? Sadly it's not just you who didn't understand how to fit and fly this ship it's pretty much the same with everyone. And they just keep bitching when the only problem the Vargur has is the low-quality pilots. And I meant that in the nicest possible way :)
  • October 18, 2009, 03:30:41 pm

    Petty Officer 2nd. Class
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    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    Btw if you want to use d650s you can fit a TE instead of a DC/PDS - after Dominion it will be almost mandatory.

    My favourite Vargur setup is so far from what an average player can afford that it's not worth posting but it includes both a TC and d650s.

    That is something that occurred to me after my last post. I'm interested in future proofing this ship, and I just can't see how it would work better with 800mm ACs than with d650s. Post Dominion, and incorporating the more reasonable suggestions, I'm thinking something like this:

    4x d650mm IIs
    3x Mystery Modules

    1x Gist X-XL
    1x 100MN AB (II/deadspace/whatever)
    1x GN TC
    2x CN Invuln
    1x Gist X SBA

    1x TE II (Unless the Rep Fleet gets better falloff)
    4x RF Gyro

    2x Ambit II

    It'll give either 15%*16% more Falloff than currently, or 15% Falloff+35% Tracking if you keep both scripts on you. The only thing I'm trying to work out is if a 4th RF Gyro hampered by the stacking bonus is less effective than a second Tracking Enhancer, which would have a stacked Tracking bonus and unstacked Falloff bonus.

    I don't want to go making changes to the OP setup without testing it, but I imagine my posted setup will be changing significantly soon. Without the Cap Booster, the salvage-as-you-go method is much more viable (You'll probably be happy to know I'll be giving it a shot and paying attention to my mission times).

    I disagree with you about being able to accurately calculate the difference due to tracking though. EFT has had its formula for calculating DPS lost to tracking and falloff wrong for a long long while, but this one has withstood repeated testing. Toss it in a spreadsheet and play around with it for a bit, and you might find it easier to argue your tracking points.

    No offense but you used a Vargur for months possibly and I had to tell you the basics? Sadly it's not just you who didn't understand how to fit and fly this ship it's pretty much the same with everyone. And they just keep bitching when the only problem the Vargur has is the low-quality pilots. And I meant that in the nicest possible way.

    Yep, I had a lapse in logic replacing the AB with the TC, and not something else. And no offense (I really mean it), but do you think if you acted a little less full of yourself you might be able to convince people of your arguments faster?  ;)

    The best way to improve your future Vargur nooblets would be to give them useful information. I'm sure you know better than to demand everyone to fly around with Gotan's ACs on, so if you have some useful, well-reasoned suggestions to improve a T2 Vargur fit, it might go a long way.

    Though I'm starting to get the impression that salvaging-as-you-go will work well with a Faction/Deadspace tank, I'm still not seeing my way around a Cap Booster for a Crystal-less T2 tank (186 sustained/692 (1m 50s) burst tank seems a bit thin for most missions, but it could work). It's going to take a bit of experimentation.
  • October 19, 2009, 07:55:59 am

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    Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with. Seriously Bored is a force to reckon with.

    As the common BC saying goes, "This loadout has been updated."

    Now ready for Dominion.
  • October 26, 2009, 07:05:51 am

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    Quick note on the setup:

    I found out the other day that with Projectile Rigging V, this setup can fit 800mm ACs (with 0.2 grid remaining!). I still prefer the d650s for the best balance in damage and tracking, but for the die-hard 800 fans, you can use them if you train yet another skill to V. ;)
  • November 04, 2009, 06:22:43 am

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    towx has no influence.

    ..like it
  • November 12, 2009, 02:34:33 pm

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    with tracking enhancers giving +30% falloff bonus, it will be better do do 3x gyro + 2x tracking enhancer.

    With tiered falloff, switching from D650's to 800's will give you both more dps and 10% more falloff.

    If you use 2 tracking enhancers and one tracking computer, the bonus from the ambits might be pretty miniscule... maybe consider putting in CCC's, semiconductor memory cells, or capacitor safeguards for a bit more cap stability?
  • November 12, 2009, 03:32:56 pm

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    with tracking enhancers giving +30% falloff bonus, it will be better do do 3x gyro + 2x tracking enhancer.

    With tiered falloff, switching from D650's to 800's will give you both more dps and 10% more falloff.

    If you use 2 tracking enhancers and one tracking computer, the bonus from the ambits might be pretty miniscule... maybe consider putting in CCC's, semiconductor memory cells, or capacitor safeguards for a bit more cap stability?

    Yep, I had been following the balance thread. ;)

    Four gyros + TE actually work out better than 3x Gyros and 2x TEs, however, inside 30KM. Especially since T2 ambits will now add 20% falloff. I'm pretty skeptical about cap stability as well, since this thing's tank can already live through everything I've had thrown at it.

    You're 100% correct on the 800mm ACs, however they sadly take Projectile Rigging V to fit with the AB. I'll be adding them in and calculating the new falloff once I'm sure the latest iteration on the test server is what will go live.

    On another note, I've been testing this fit out on Sisi recently. The new projectile changes make this ship absolutely killer. It's ridiculous how effective the new purified ammo is in PVE. I'm betting the new Vargur would tie for best Marauder, if it weren't for the much higher ammo consumption.
  • November 30, 2009, 06:31:46 pm

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    Updated yet again for Dominion!

    I can verify that you can cram 800mm II ACs on this biach. Fits with 0.2 grid to spare, so you might need ot use 650mm until you have Projectile Rigging V. I've also updated the DPS and falloff stats to reflect the most recent changes to projectiles (which are going live in Dominion!)
  • December 02, 2009, 09:57:03 pm

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    Arlocanta has no influence.

    Thats insane and I will surely try that out in the next couple of weeks.
    Hopefully 2 :)

    Though the tank is Questionable for me used to running perma tanks with uber defense witch in pve I really dont need the defence I am used to. 
  • December 03, 2009, 08:37:12 am

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    Thats insane and I will surely try that out in the next couple of weeks.
    Hopefully 2 :)

    Though the tank is Questionable for me used to running perma tanks with uber defense witch in pve I really dont need the defence I am used to. 

    Thanks man :D I hate to ask, but if you like the fit please click that lil' + box.

    As for cap stability, I think you'll find you won't need it with this thing. I have never, ever, run out of capacitor during a mission, including Smash The Supplier, AE Bonus room, and full aggro in the first room of The Assault.
  • December 03, 2009, 08:11:58 pm

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    Arlocanta has no influence.

    Does that build really fit with 0.2 grid left is that tested on current domination tranquility server I mean that probably the tightest fit I have heard of.
    Sad that I have to wait for skills :(.
    Thanks for the insurance on the tank :) also a big plus for ya.
  • December 03, 2009, 08:25:19 pm

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    Does that build really fit with 0.2 grid left is that tested on current domination tranquility server I mean that probably the tightest fit I have heard of.
    Sad that I have to wait for skills :(.
    Thanks for the insurance on the tank :) also a big plus for ya.

    Yep, it's tighter than a nun's stink star, but I guarantee it fits. I trained Projectile Rigging V just to get those guns on, but I'd say it's worth it. In the mean time however, dual650mm will fit perfectly fine and give you excellent performance, so no reason to be shy with the fit.


    And thanks for the rate up! :)
  • December 08, 2009, 11:04:31 am

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    Though what is the reason for the gixt x boost amplifier the whole build already cost a fortune to some folks and the 5.12 % more shield boost isn't that much tank for 450 mill isk to say a 100 mill caldari navy shield boost amplifier its like in eft not sure if it changes in the new domination but its 40 in eft difference kinda shotty for the isk amount.
  • December 08, 2009, 11:57:07 am

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    Though what is the reason for the gixt x boost amplifier the whole build already cost a fortune to some folks and the 5.12 % more shield boost isn't that much tank for 450 mill isk to say a 100 mill caldari navy shield boost amplifier its like in eft not sure if it changes in the new domination but its 40 in eft difference kinda shotty for the isk amount.

    I definitely see your point. I suppose the simplest answer would be that I started this fit with the idea, "What is the absolute best this ship can do without incredibly rare officer gear?"

    ...hence the incredible price tag. I could probably go through each module with the same logic and pare down 90% of it (Why an X-type XL booster? Why CN Invulns when the tank can likely be just fine with T2?)

    All those questions caused me to make my T2 Tank Vargur fit, which truth be told, I'm much more interested in improving than this setup. The only reason I maintain this as a separate fitting is that it seems to get much more attention from the shiny modules, and it can do one or two tricks that my T2 fit can't. The deadspace tank frees up a mid that is very useful, and allows for the difference in lows and rigs between the two.

    I have to admit though that I've sold off, downgraded, or moth-balled most of the modules in this setup since I began flying it (though I keep a good amount of it in lock-up so I can test any changes to this fit with first-hand experience). I spend much more time in the T2 fit these days, making virtually the same amount of isk/hour.
  • January 02, 2010, 06:25:43 pm

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    fenguard has no influence.

    excellent fit +1
  • January 24, 2010, 10:10:03 am

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    Borgor Brag is breaking through obscurity. Borgor Brag is breaking through obscurity. Borgor Brag is breaking through obscurity. Borgor Brag is breaking through obscurity. Borgor Brag is breaking through obscurity.

    Ogres are slower than a turtle wading through honey...

    Win
  • February 02, 2010, 10:25:46 am

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    matari has no influence.

    +1 just for your comment :D
    and cause it's great fit ofcourse :D
  • February 02, 2010, 02:25:30 pm

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    +1 just for your comment :D
    and cause it's great fit ofcourse :D

    Haha, thanks much! (Borgor Brag too.)
  • February 10, 2010, 11:05:34 am

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    mostro has no influence.

    Nice

    Did you look at figures using a PDU instead of one of your Gyros?
  • February 11, 2010, 07:13:57 am

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    Nice

    Did you look at figures using a PDU instead of one of your Gyros?

    Thanks Mostro. While it would improve the tank a bit, a Power Diagnostic System really isn't needed on this setup. The tank here is strong enough to survive full AE bonus room aggro without cracking, so buffing it even more isn't necessary.

    On top of that, the main goal of your mission ship should be the fastest mission time possible. To that end, dropping the Gyro would be a step backward. (You'd lose 6.6% damage.)
  • February 15, 2010, 08:15:30 am

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    DoEd has no influence.

    Way overtanked:s
  • February 15, 2010, 09:25:09 am

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    Way overtanked:s

    The tank is definitely beefy...but I have eight modules (counting the rigs) dedicated to increasing or projecting damage, and four to the tank. Specifically, I have four damage and four range modules, with one as a range/tracking switch hitter which is as high as I'm willing to go with stacking penalties.

    All that considered, I figured I'd design it to get the best of both the gank and tank worlds. It is definitely impractical from a price perspective, which is why I'm focusing my efforts on this fit instead these days. To your credit, a T2 tank works just as well.

    Not that I'm feeling particularly defensive. ;) I'm just curious what you think would be an improvement, and why.
  • February 19, 2010, 03:17:20 am

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    Donnagen has no influence.

    Im relatively knew to eve, and i feel i have to say that perhaps many of you experienced players with millions of SP will have lost the AGONY that is gazing at a fit you might just be able to fly in a year...

    AAAAAAAAARRRGH!!!!

    Anyway, i have spent an obscene amount of time researching pvp and gazing at fits of battleclinic and they have all proved really useful :) Im only a 3 monther but im already the "PVP guy" in my corp :D I often just link them to these fits. My corp leader uses a cane from here occasionally and i FINALLY beat him in a 1v1 with my HAM drake.

    Thanks to all the commentors for providing so many improvements and ideas!

    Anyway basically to say great fit and +1 from me. And finally...

    GIVE ME SKILLLZ *sob*
  • February 19, 2010, 11:44:15 am

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    Im relatively knew to eve, and i feel i have to say that perhaps many of you experienced players with millions of SP will have lost the AGONY that is gazing at a fit you might just be able to fly in a year...

    Haha, no, I actually get that feeling still, and I've been playing for three years. I'm currently drooling over my SacriHugiBond idea (regardless of the fact that no one likes it, hah).

    Just to be clear though, you're aware this fit is for PVE, right?

    If you're interested in some odd but effective PVP fits, I'd recommend any of these:

    The Typhoon as it should be!!  - Just the best typhoon fit ever.

    Cynabal: Vagnabal  - This makes Vagabonds cry.

    Nano Shield Hurricane - My preferred PVP Cane. What I actually fly isn't quite like anything on BC, but this is close.

    Dominion Rupture - I'm sure you've seen Garamon's Gank. But given that you're usually in a gang for PVP, I think this odd setup could potentially be more useful, and please consider another option, thanks! much better.
  • February 21, 2010, 07:13:02 am

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    Soren has no influence.

    Nice fit.

    However, Im trying to mimic this fit and I have excellent skills on my alt. 

    the Gist Shield booster listed here puts my power grid at 10203/9875.

    ARe you using implants to decrease power grid?

    I can skill up to lvl 5 on marauder and maybe a couple other things I have at lvl 4 but dont know if that will give me the difference or not.
  • February 21, 2010, 10:51:06 am

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    A13x has no influence.

    I have same issue with the power, how are you managing to get it low as mine is way over
  • February 21, 2010, 11:16:04 am

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    I have same issue with the power, how are you managing to get it low as mine is way over

    Projectile Rigging V. With Projectile Upgraes IV, you either need to use a rig of a different variety, or use 650mm guns. (The 650mm guns really aren't that bad. I only put 800s on there because I could fit them with my skills.)

    Hope that works for ya!
  • February 24, 2010, 11:52:39 pm

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    Vilu Duskar has no influence.

    God that looks so amazing. Encourages me to make the training trek.

    alot of great discussion in the thread, learned quite a bit about how the ship works. Props @ Serious for doing so much research into your fit. +1
  • March 01, 2010, 02:39:39 pm

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    Konniption has no influence.

    Hey, nice fit, ive come up with another option on your 8 gun, 4 tank mod idea.
    Has been tweeked a bit from its conception.
    Let me know what you think.
    http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/36053-The-Crystal-Vargur.html
  • March 02, 2010, 07:09:11 am

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    Hey, nice fit, ive come up with another option on your 8 gun, 4 tank mod idea.
    Has been tweeked a bit from its conception.
    Let me know what you think.
    http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/36053-The-Crystal-Vargur.html


    Just took a peek, and it's quite good!

    Doing the math on why your setup works made me realize that some of my stats were off for this setup. Specifically, I was slightly overstating the DPS while greatly understating the falloff this setup had.

    That's what I get for doing the math by hand before Dominion actually came out...

    The stats are now fixed.
  • March 03, 2010, 05:39:18 am

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    NEW UPDATE

    I learned something new from Konniption. 3x RF Gyros + 1x Aerator II rig gives more DPS than 4x RF Gyros. To that end, I've switched up the rigs and the lows in this setup. The result?

    DPS:  965 -> 980 with RF ammo
              769 -> 781 with Barrage

    Range: 71KM -> 74KM with range script, RF ammo
                 106KM -> 110KM with range script, Barrage

    It tracks better and costs slightly less to fit as well. Frustratingly, in order to use a T2 Aerator rig, I had to downgrade to a T1 Ambit. That was annoying as hell, but everything worked out better in the end while absolutely no stat was degraded. Win all around.

    For the record: It still fits with 0.2 Grid to spare if you have Projectile Upgrades V. It's tighter than a nun's ass, but I really recommend it.


     (Also, I seriously recommend checking Konniption's loadout in the post above mine. It has the same DPS as my setup, but slightly more range and is half the price. It really is quite good.)
  • March 13, 2010, 09:56:45 am

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    crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know. crimbizzle forgot more about gaming than you'll ever know.

    Have cap boosted Vargurs fallen from favor with Dominion?  Or does it just depend on how cap hungry your tank is?  Love this loadout btw, makes me drool when I compare it to my Maelstrom 'baby vargur' I'm using now.  +1
  • March 13, 2010, 01:06:00 pm

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    Have cap boosted Vargurs fallen from favor with Dominion?  Or does it just depend on how cap hungry your tank is?  Love this loadout btw, makes me drool when I compare it to my Maelstrom 'baby vargur' I'm using now.  +1

    Actually if you take a peek at my T2 version, it has a cap booster on it. This fit also used to have a cap booster as well, but one day when I went through the Angel Extravaganza bonus room without using the booster, I figured the thing was just dead weight in the fit. (I was also trolled into changing it if you read the whole thread. ;-)

    The tank on this this is monstrous to the point that all you need to do is manage the boosting and it will get you through any mission, not to mention having 2-3 minutes of all-out massive tank for dealing with the first few hairy moments.
  • January 02, 2011, 01:59:34 pm

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    Rampant Joy has no influence.

    Right. I spent millions of skillpoints getting into my beloved sleipnir. This setup jsut transformed that setup into a lvl3 runner - and set me onto a new plan. I'm going to copy this setup straight off - apart from losing the boost amp for a cap recharger (gotta love crystals!)

    +1 HUGS!
  • November 30, 2011, 12:44:01 am

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    Antal Marius has no influence.

    Oh noes! You haven't a T2 tractor on it! =P Just messing with you, might as well update it with them though